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Thread: Do koi fish develop shoulder humps as they grow?

  1. #1
    Tosai
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    Do koi fish develop shoulder humps as they grow?

    I usually see large koi fish with shoulder humps, do they really develop humps when they grow big or is it just from overfeeding (and having a bloated body)?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Some do, some do not. Those with Matsunosuke genetics tend not to have humps. The genetics that give us Sakai Fish Farm's GC-winning monster-sized Kohaku tend toward humps of some degree. Some say the genetics for size tend to produce humps, but that is not quite right. There are meter long koi without humps. The shoulder hump can be modest, or in some instances extreme to the point of making the fish look disfigured. Judges debate just how much of a hump is fully acceptable and when it reaches the point of being a negative.

    Humps are a result of feeding enough for the fish to have fat to store. Usually the koi will be full-bodied. Whether you consider it 'bloated' is a personal preference. If the koi has such mass that its head seems too small for the mass, then I consider it too fat. That does not mean it has overall poor body form.... some can become too fat to the point of having a disfiguring huge hump without having a 'hanging belly' or otherwise be misshapen.

    Several years ago I was at a Fall harvest at Quality Koi in New Jersey where many of the nisai came out with shoulder humps. It had been a short, cool summer. Too cool for the fish to grow at the normal rate. But, they had eaten at the normal rate. The extra nutrition was stored, resulting in shorter than normal nisai with very full bodies and humps. The humps on these nisai disappeared as the fish grew in normal conditions.

  3. #3
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Some do, some do not. Those with Matsunosuke genetics tend not to have humps. The genetics that give us Sakai Fish Farm's GC-winning monster-sized Kohaku tend toward humps of some degree. Some say the genetics for size tend to produce humps, but that is not quite right. There are meter long koi without humps. The shoulder hump can be modest, or in some instances extreme to the point of making the fish look disfigured. Judges debate just how much of a hump is fully acceptable and when it reaches the point of being a negative.

    Humps are a result of feeding enough for the fish to have fat to store. Usually the koi will be full-bodied. Whether you consider it 'bloated' is a personal preference. If the koi has such mass that its head seems too small for the mass, then I consider it too fat. That does not mean it has overall poor body form.... some can become too fat to the point of having a disfiguring huge hump without having a 'hanging belly' or otherwise be misshapen.

    Several years ago I was at a Fall harvest at Quality Koi in New Jersey where many of the nisai came out with shoulder humps. It had been a short, cool summer. Too cool for the fish to grow at the normal rate. But, they had eaten at the normal rate. The extra nutrition was stored, resulting in shorter than normal nisai with very full bodies and humps. The humps on these nisai disappeared as the fish grew in normal conditions.
    Hmm quite interesting, yeah some people say that larger fish tend to have humps, but some fish I see dont have any. No wonder all the koi featured in competitions have visible humps, I guess the Japanese and other enthusiasts just like making them fat! However I see some fish that are not fat, but they do have humps that ruin the whole conformation of the koi. Do you mean that the humps will eventually disappear when the fish completes its growth?

    And its really rare for me to hear about some "lines" within the koi subspecies. All I can search or read about are the various patterns, but no bloodline whatsover. Is there anywhere I can read more on that?

  4. #4
    Tosai
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrUt-4TdTik

    I think you're right, in this video a lot of koi do have visible humps, and this is due to feeding it to the point of making their bodies slightly bloated. Is it weird that I dislike fat koi?

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    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytonyu View Post
    Hmm quite interesting, yeah some people say that larger fish tend to have humps, but some fish I see dont have any. No wonder all the koi featured in competitions have visible humps, I guess the Japanese and other enthusiasts just like making them fat! However I see some fish that are not fat, but they do have humps that ruin the whole conformation of the koi. Do you mean that the humps will eventually disappear when the fish completes its growth?

    And its really rare for me to hear about some "lines" within the koi subspecies. All I can search or read about are the various patterns, but no bloodline whatsover. Is there anywhere I can read more on that?
    Browse around on here, you will find the answers you seek about bloodlines.

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    Jumbo Appliance Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytonyu View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrUt-4TdTik

    I think you're right, in this video a lot of koi do have visible humps, and this is due to feeding it to the point of making their bodies slightly bloated. Is it weird that I dislike fat koi?
    No one likes a fat koi, but many enjoy full bodied koi. There is a difference. Keep in mind the variations in male and female bodies, as well as varieties. I like male Kohaku and Showa, but like female Sanke. You'll note that different varieties have different body shapes. It's kinda whatever you prefer.

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    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
    No one likes a fat koi, but many enjoy full bodied koi. There is a difference. Keep in mind the variations in male and female bodies, as well as varieties. I like male Kohaku and Showa, but like female Sanke. You'll note that different varieties have different body shapes. It's kinda whatever you prefer.
    Hmm, I thought different varieties only had different colors, I've never seen an index of different types of koi bodies

  8. #8
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Mike Bumps up a topic. "Humps"

    Regardless of genetic, for my personal experiences of locally bred koi, there are several big faults of feeding and keeping which cause hump and belly fat.

    1) Overfeeding, hobbyist feeing much more than koi required.

    2) wrong time feeding, late-night feeding, cold water/season feeding, more feeding and one time a day instead of less feeding in several times.

    3) high-fat feeding, feeding with high lipid/fats really cause body shape change.

    4) Protein obsession, looking unbalanced feeds, food mentions 42% fat but no mentions this fats contains essential amino acids or not. more important than the percentage of protein level is the balance and the level of Amino acids.

    5) high density of koi in concrete pond cause more foods and less opportunity for burning energy.

    6) Didn't feed fresh food, in market shops mostly selling near to expire foods very cheap these foods has changed quality, especially in protein level and fats. (I'm not sure but I heard that in old foods unsaturated fats conversion to trans fats).


    If a koi was not able to grow in length it will grow in weight and width. keeping koi hungry is much better than feeding cheap food/old food/high fat / over 42% protein not tested food.


    My Personal Experiences.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytonyu View Post
    Hmm, I thought different varieties only had different colors, I've never seen an index of different types of koi bodies
    I have not seen an index of body types either. Putting together one would be a great project that would help teach about koi. It would not be too difficult to get photos of classic 'front-loaded' Showa, the 'cigar-shaped' Matsunosuke Sanke, spindle-shape pre-SFF Kohaku, 'blimp-shape' SFF Kohaku, full-bodied Chagoi and dumpy food fish. The hard work would be filling in the other less well-known body forms linked to varieties. And, of course, the blending of body forms that results from breeders' efforts to improve are problematical.

  10. #10
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytonyu View Post
    I usually see large koi fish with shoulder humps, do they really develop humps when they grow big or is it just from overfeeding (and having a bloated body)?
    How do you view your Koi?

    Garfield

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