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Thread: Speaking of Supply Side of Things

  1. #1
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Speaking of Supply Side of Things

    Some of the recent posts have had me thinking about koi production around the world. I have a list of websites I visit weekly to see the fish posted. Some are domestic U.S. dealers, some in the U.K. and some in Japan (can't read all of them, but pics are nice). It is rare that I buy anything, but I enjoy the window shopping. Fact is, all but a couple of my koi were acquired from two dealers. It is not that I particularly trust their pricing or believe their puffery. It is simply that I am confident their fish are going to be healthy, KHV-free, from the breeder represented to have bred the fish and that no conscious falsehood will be used to make a sale (but matters of opinion are always a bit suspect to my jaded mind). If I ever learned I was wrong on any of these points, I would simply cease to purchase from them.

    Both deal in Japanese-bred koi. Until the time comes they decide dealing in koi bred in China or Taiwan or Israel or ..... wherever will be part of their business, it is pretty unlikely I'll be acquiring any. Of course, there are two particular domestic breeders I'd patronize because I'm confident of their health regimens.

    All of which made me think of how much reliance we place in our dealers' word. If I am told a Sanke was bred by Marujo, why would I suspect it was actually from China? Or, if I am told a Kohaku is tosai from the third spawning of a former All-Japan GC, why would I think it actually is nisai from an unknown Niigata breeder? Just my luck I got the weak-gened tosai.

    I do not believe any of my koi were bred in China, nor in Israel, but I can never really know for certain. Some things I accept until the source is proved unreliable.

    Dealers are in it for the money, but for many it is also the love of the fish. We hobbyists are very dependent on them. It makes for a curious relationship of never completely trusting them, but in so many ways blindly relying on them. Rather like a drug addict must rely on his dealer? ... a very honorable breed. I'm glad there are two I feel sure about. It would be tough if I felt that way about only one.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    You got me thinking.....Well anyways, I trust my dealers pretty well...I am almost there every shipment that comes in, even to the point of helping unload...I see the boxes with Japan Airlines all over it and I feel very confident they are from Japan...

  3. #3
    Sansai
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    Hello Mike,

    Besides trusting your dealer, the better kois imported in recent years have certificates from the breeders. Each certificate has photo of the koi and some description on size, time of birth, sometimes even the parent koi etc. And it is always garranteed female. This way you can be sure 100%.

  4. #4
    Jumbo
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    Thumbs down

    M,
    I think we should change 'koi hobby' to 'koi addiction', 'koi hobbyist' to 'koi addict', or we can change 'drug addiction' to 'drug hobby'.

    a while back I heard that a 'japanese only' koi dealer in the US actually import from taiwan.

    stan

  5. #5
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Pretty interesting...A guy selling Taiwanese Koi as Japanese Koi...Must be really nice looking koi if you did know where they are from....

  6. #6
    Jumbo
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    Ooops, talked too much. I may have forgotten the name of the dealer. I don't know him anyway.

    stan

  7. #7
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Stan, it's best you say nothing more.....Because you are going to stir up some drama with this.....

  8. #8
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    In any business relationship trust is earned. In most businesses, even koi, owner operators are out to make a living.Quality is like buying oats, if you want good clean fresh oats you must pay a good price for them if your satisfied with oats that have already gone thru the horse, then they come a little cheaper.

    The certificate program does insure that the koi was bred by which dealer. It doesn't prove it was his best individual from that spawn. Even Our hero Momotaro culls his koi, meaning some don't make his standard. Now are these koi
    destoyed or sold wholesale to the best bidder, who can honestly sell them as from a famous breeder? A few years back when Mano-san was still alive (daiinichi) breeders would buy his stock and breed them to market as daiinichi.
    It isn't Daiinichi unless daiinich breeds them and culls to HIS STANDARDS!

    bottom line is you need to be able to learn and identify what makes a good koi .I have seen some tremendous values in unknown japanese breeders koi because the hobbists knew what to look for and didn't have to pay for the name.

    Learning is evoluntionary, it takes time and money. I good bet is to look closely at famous breeders stuff and be able to identitfy what makes their better koi turn out. You still have to provide healthy water and an uncrowed habitat.

    one hobbyists I know goes to japan and always asks for a quote on the breeders #1 koi. If the breeder thinks it's his best it probably is. If this guy can then afford it he buys it. His success rate is very good!

    just some thought on a very deep subject

  9. #9
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    It isn't Daiinichi unless daiinich breeds them and culls to HIS STANDARDS!
    Thinking along these lines isn't it difficult to call any non-tatagoi as being from a specific breeder?
    In general anything not classified as tatagoi by the breeder is a culled fish. Tosai are killed in the initial culls simply because these have no prospect of ever having any monatary value except as rose food. The investment at this point is marginal but increases as point at which the fish were spawned recedes. At some point the fish will offer the prospect of a return of some sort and can be sold, but call it what you will, this fish hasn't made the grade to some degree and must be gotten rid of.
    So where do we draw the line? At what point is a fish worthy or not? Anything a breeder sells much surely represent the genetic traits of its breeder to a greater or lesser degree?

    B.Scott

  10. #10
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    nicely stated

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