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Thread: Using Big Parents produces Big Fry?

  1. #1
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Using Big Parents produces Big Fry?

    Does the fact that breeders use big parents to produce big fry? I know breeders use males for pattern and skin quality and females for size. But let's say a breeder uses a female that has magoi bloodline. Let's say the female is 60cm, and the males used are 50cm...The fact that the female is carrying the Magoi trait and as well as the males will genetics allow the offspring to grow jumbo than the parents, even if the parents are small by breeding standards.

  2. #2
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    The fact that big females produce big eggs and big eggs produce big fry seems pretty well confirmed. However, that's a "nurture" characteristic, not a "nature" (genetic) characteristic. As the parent fish grow, they produce larger offspring, but their genetics remain the same.

    One thing to consider though... A fry from a young parent may not get off to the best start in life. While the fry may have the genetic background to grow large, it's potential may be impaced by the fact that its early development was constrained by being born small. Again this is a nutrure characteristic, not a nature characteristic. I do not know if this happens in real life.

    -steve hopkins

  3. #3
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Steve makes a good point about parent age and that's why when you look at trusted breeders they are older. So many hobbyists on these boards talk about males at two and three and females three and up. Because they have the genes doesn't mean that if the feed and growth conditions are not right you will be able to benefit solely from genetics! With the right genes tho, you don't have much of a chance! (lol)

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    Aquitori,
    What the heck are you asking about......are you asking about fry size or offspring size when they become mature?
    And Bekko, you got me confused too....Egg size is determined by the nature/nurture influences on the female used in spawning. And Both interplay. Without knowing the ancestry and all the physical aspects of the koi's rearing it is difficult to determine what percentage is nature or nurture....
    And dick meant, "WithOUT the right genetics......"

    My haed hruts form trinyg to raed these psots

  5. #5
    Tosai
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    Size is very inheritable. In mammalian genetics the heritable factor for body size has been cited to be in the 70 percentile range. Not to many other inheritable phenotypes or expressions come close to this. I can tell you from experience that one doesn't get large animals from small parents, or even medium sized parents.


    Mark

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    Now, I figure that Aquitori is asking about final size of the offspring and not about "fry size" as it would be quite obvious that the male would not in any way, shape, form, or fashion have ANY influence on the size of his spawn's fry. And Aquitori does talk of the parents (plural).
    And Dick answered that question...but one other dynamic needs to be mentioned...there are many strategies within a species dna that dictates the method used to enhance the odds that the offspring ( a number of the offspring suitable to maintain the continuance of the individual's involved DNA make it through to yet another generation) survive to adulthood.
    The strategy utilized by carp is to produce an astonding number of offspring. One of the dynamics which increases the likelihood that the needed number of offspring (just a few) will reach adulthood is to have an extreme variation in the genetic make-up of the offspring......Sorta like quick picks for the lottery. And in carp the variation doesn't look that great to us and it isn't because all the odd balls and their genes are weeded out by predators and such...
    But then man steps in and saves the really odd-looking fish. And when those are bred the genes available are extreme and the "mixing" still occurs...and the whole gambit is thrown....and that explains why the "culling ain't gonna be able to be stopped. Koi do not throw true to what they look like to any great extent.
    The same thing happens when big parents are bred...the genes to throw "big koi" are passed on..just not equally to all the spawn...chances are it will be skewed towards the behavior, metabolism,style, color, shape, and length of the parents....but remember the way this animal has been able to survive all sorts of enviroments for millions of years from one generation to the next is by making all the genetic options possible.
    The nurture(physical) aspect entertwines with the nature (genes) aspect and it lets the ones with the right genes for that environment survive, grow, mature, and breed.
    Yes simplified...

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    Mark?
    You are not aware of the statistics available on first generation Asian-Americans substantially outgrowing their parents.
    And please...mammalian genetics in the text you are stating has little to do with a species having 10's of thousands..if not 100's of thousands offspring each year....

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    mark,
    Also get an understanding of Standard deviations and genetic variability before you make emphatic statements.
    Along with the fact that it has been established that Dwarfs can have "normal-sized children.
    I'll shut up now because my momma is right.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee
    Mark?
    You are not aware of the statistics available on first generation Asian-Americans substantially outgrowing their parents.
    And please...mammalian genetics in the text you are stating has little to do with a species having 10's of thousands..if not 100's of thousands offspring each year....
    That stat is very true my mom is 5'3" my dad is 5'9" and me the end result 6' 280lbs....I out weight both of them together. American born Asians are a bit bigger.

  10. #10
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori
    That stat is very true my mom is 5'3" my dad is 5'9" and me the end result 6' 280lbs....I out weight both of them together. American born Asians are a bit bigger.
    Have you ever noticed the next generation of Asians in America? They are getting really tall. I have just one thing to say. The one thing that the past generations of asians had that the older generations didn't have.................

    Hamburgers. Meat. Does the body right!

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