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Thread: Growth rates and longevity

  1. #11
    Sansai Vogata's Avatar
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    Dear Bekko

    If you have not read the story of Hanako I can mail it to you. I find it strange that there would bee so many sources mentioned in a flash story.

    Itís a nice story any way you view it.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Wow,Arthur Thank-you! What good insight from a repected Breeder. Very interesting and helpful. thanks again!!

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Years ago, when my daughter was a toddler, no evening could end without a rhyme.....

    One misty, moisty morning
    When rainy was the weather,
    I chanced to meet an old man
    Dressed all in leather.

    Dressed all in leather,
    From his boots to his chin,
    He began to compliment
    And I began to grin.

    How do you do?
    How do you do?
    And, how do you do, again!

    And then she would say, "Do it again, daddy."

    The story of Hanako is just that sort of pleasurable nonsense. The age estimates were based on scale rings, like the annual rings in the trunk of a tree, but since that time it has been learned that many growth lines can appear in a carp's scales in a single year. I have read very stingy estimates of her actual age, but prefer the notion that one can ever know for sure. It is too pleasurable a tale to be marred by truth and science. So, tell it again, tell it again. And tell it again, do.

  4. #14
    Oyagoi koifishgirl's Avatar
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    Red face

    Sorry all as I was reading the post I came to Steve's post and I turned and ask Jack how old the pond was and when and how long the carp had been in the pond. He told me the were put in the pond in 1998 . It was a simple misunderstanding.

  5. #15
    Sansai Vogata's Avatar
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    MikeM

    Hello again to all

    Yes MikeM the age by scale is at best an indication.



    We used when I was at school (some time ago) as ďstoneĒ (donít recall its name but its located inside the head of fish) as a counter, it was supposed to be more accurate. As for scales it will give an indication and if we trust that it is not a deliberate hoax it could be used as an indicator. If we take it harsh and give it an average of three each year Kanako was still over 70 years old. Then there is the mentioned parents and grandparents with an low set cycle of say 40 years this gives us approximately 120 years.

    So by reading the transcript of something I have not found any reason to believe is anything but a public document I get 70 Ė 120 years. For me itís still a very old Nishikigoi.



    As mentioned I have it as an word document and will mail it to any that are interested and itís quit a nice tail. Especially when you have the years past its interesting to se how they then had hopes for the future (meaning around the time I entered the world).
    Tone - Truls -Petter
    Vogata NI

  6. #16
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Comparisons Only

    Larger dog breed live less years than smaller ones - in general

    Koi are bred and selected for the potential of their future appearance and are not selected on the basis of how long they live

    While many people live past 100, I personally dont expect to live to that ripe old age. Depending upon what country you live in you will find that the average age is around 70-75 years or so. I hope I will live to 70.

    While many koi keepers might report they have had or do have koi that live to around 20 years, I do not expect all koi in general to live that long. I expect that the average is much less.

    These comments are not science.

    Bradley Bradley
    Host: Australian Koi Forum
    www.koi.freebb.com

  7. #17
    Tosai evabug1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    I think heavy set (fat) poor nutritioned over fed koi kept in less than pristine water have a better chance to have life shortened them a healthy, non overweight version. My Ake mae is in her upper 20's. Never been sick a day
    and would be the pond pig if I'd let her. I have had lots of koi kichi's criticise my underfeeding because my koi are fit and not obese. But I don't care. The same thing that keeps humans going, mixed healthy diet, proper body fat % and excercise works for koi as well!
    I'm a novice keeper myself, but my gut feeling on the subject is more in line with your comments. It's something I've wondered about since entering the hobby so I am happy to see this thread and the variety of opinions expressed.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi
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    My oldest koi is a doitsu sanke, 38 years old and going strong. Actually Methusela for a koi, mostly my breeding koi have an average life span of from 7 to 10 years. Generally speaking, breeding koi are depreciated and replaced on a five year program (in Japan too).

    You can get an idea of age by reading scales. But....it is a technique poorly understood and primarily used in the context of aging a cohort (group of fish the same age) and not individuals. Scale rings grow faster or slower depending on many things, food climate, etc. Within the rings there are circuli-the many rings deposited during growth and annuli-rings that are only deposited as growth rapidly slows with the onset of winter. If you take several scales from several fish of similar size from a large group, you can indeed gain inference as to the age in years of the group of fish. Not so easy to determine the age in years of each fish.

    Now, some fish have an otolith (ear stone) which can be cut and rings counted to get a better idea of the individual fish' age. Study of bones in the spine and other clues as to age can also be considered.

    I know of no koi being documented to live over 100 years. I know of one common carp at a fishing camp in the UK that was well documented to have lived 99 years.

    Not koi, but antoher species, largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) has been studied extensively as to growht in different situations. It is well documented that bass living in a powerplant cooling reservoir (stays warm all year long) grow much faster than those in adjacent, but unheated reservoirs. However, they tend to live shorter lives and never reach as large an overall size as those undergoing a "four seasons" lifestyle.

    My guess is that koi would tend to be similar to the bass. If heated constantly and pushed hard with feed for maximum growth, they will grow faster, but live longer and get to a larger ultimate size, I doubt it.

    Brett
    Brett

  9. #19
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    glad to see this thread brought back up. A good reminder that there are other roads to Rome. I think the human condition is to be in a hurry and want quicker results. I also think we as a collector get bored with our koi after a relatively short time.

    In the three year study, Dan Olson and I did with Toshio's koi, the ones that were allowed to experience winter caught up with their pond mates
    that were held inside and fed. What is weird but I'm thinking on it, is....the koi were broken down by Toshio into what we could understand as single,double and triple A grade koi. We kept the AAA koi inside, protected and fed the first winter. The other two grades stayed outside. Quess which ones turned out the best for size and quality? It's really got me thinking.......
    Dick Benbow

  10. #20
    ppp
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    Sansai ppp's Avatar
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    Being someone who lives in the hot tropics without 4 seasons, this is a very intriguing topic. We don't have a winter season to stop feeding the koi, and if we cut down feed too much, the koi will lose bulk because the warm temperatures maintain high activity and metabolic levels.

    Momotaro koi are known for their big potential size as well as being very fast growers. Apparently the knife cuts both ways and many have lamented that they have shorter average life spans too, as a result. Is there any evidence to this effect or even just a gut feel?

    Sometimes it's not a matter of being impatient for rapid growth, but the fear that if the koi does not get its best possible growth during its 1st 3 years, it will never achieve its maximum genetic potential for eventual size.


    Cheers,
    Paul
    YouTube - hooinc's Channel

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