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Thread: Saki Hiroshima's main lines for Kohak...

  1. #11
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    NorCal Biotch!!!
    I think with the new age of "Bloodlines" we can actually call these fish by name of bloodline. True these aren't "Bloodlines" by old standards but by new standards it is considered bloodline. Diainichi, Matsunoke, Jimbei, Sensuke, Sadazo....out of these bloodlines does anyone know the true mix to develop these lines? NO, don't think so....For a breeder to actually call it it's own they have to be breeding for more than 10 years. Saki has it's own line. The great thing about this is that we can pick and choose what line(mix) we want fish from. Let's say I want a Kohak, of course I am goin to ask for a Kohak from the "Eagle" line. or Sanke from the "Mako" line. It makes shopping for bloodline fish easier....
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  2. #12
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Sacramento, CA.
    The maruten kohaku is from Ichimatsu Rose, which is a descendant of Rose, which is from Sakura.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Orlando, Florida
    Different people seem to have different ideas in mind when they refer to "bloodline". By my way of thinking, an individual koi and its direct offspring are not a "bloodline", but may be the root of a bloodline if there are identifiable characteristics which are transmitted through generations. Brady Brandwood observed some time ago that most references to "bloodline" have become shorthand ways to communicate about certain characteristics, although the "bloodline" referenced no longer exists in the form that it did when the name first arose. When we refer to Sadazo, we generally are speaking of a certain type of Hi, not the Sadazo bloodline of old. Those fish were long since crossed with numerous other Kohaku of different lineages. The Sadazo-type Hi may still appear among a batch of fry, but it is unlikely there will be uniformity among the fry sufficient to label all, or any substantial part, "Sadazo". And, there was more to the Sadazo Kohaku of old than Hi. There was also body shape and size characteristics, not all of which would be considered the desirable goal of today's breeders. ...If it were, the hobby would have focused only on Sadazo and breeders would not have progressed.

    The Sakai brothers created a bloodline with their Matsunosuke sanke. These koi have readily identifiable body shape, Hi and Sumi. There are certain patternings that appear with regularity. And, Matsunosuke has the mark of size. So much so, that other breeders have mixed the Matsunosuke genes into their mix of pairings. Breeder "X" may become well-known for producing Sanke derived from the Matsunosuke line mixed with, say Jinbei. The end result is neither. I would not consider breeder "X" to have created a new bloodline. MikeP's apellation of "keito" would seem more accurate to me ... more a "brand" that will cease when the magic of the pairing of the particular parent fish can no longer be repeated because one has died or become too aged.

    On another board JR has denied there is such a thing as bloodlines, other than in the most colloquial sense. (Although given his admiration for Toshio Sakai, I think he might accept Matsunosuke as a true bloodline that still exists.) His point was that the breeders seeking to produce ever higher quality and refinement are not stagnant in their pairings. Sadazo is crossed with Tomoin, and the offspring crossed with Sensuke, etc. Different body shapes come out of the mix and the Hi may remind of one type more than another, but perhaps not really like any of them? After a few generations, the originals are long since lost. Perhaps hobbyists will refer to the Kazuto bloodline after Kazuto produces a top winning koi, but that champion is a blend of genes whose offspring will not necessarily bear much resemblance.

    That does not mean I would not want an offspring from Rose Queen or Benibana, etc. I would love to have one. Perhaps I would be so lucky as to get the one when the capacity for size and depth of color of the parent. Looking at Momotaro, Brian's photo display of the parent fish and the crossings that produced Maeda's main oyagoi a couple of issues ago in K-B is very instructive ... Maeda's eye is attracted to certain characteristics and he is crossing and back-crossing in ways that could lead to a true bloodline ... one that produces a high degree of similarity within a limited range of variation ... at least by nishikigoi standards. Has he reached that point already? I guess it depends on one's view of the degree of uniformity and the breadth of the range of variation acceptable.

    One of the fascinating things in Nishikigoi breeding is the interaction between the artistic eye of the breeder and the demand of the marketplace. Neither follows the other, but both are inherently linked. No "bloodline" can remain stable in that interaction.

  4. #14
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    That was a good one Mike. Thanks.

    You guys have probably seen Peter Waddington's take on bloodlines:


  5. #15
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    NorCal Biotch!!!
    I did some studying on this thread and found that Saki Hiroshima uses these parents to develop there Kohak bloodline:

    "Donguri" - Sensuke Bloodline
    "Sakura" - Sensuke Bloodline
    "Dongame" - Dainichi Bloodline
    "Dainichi B Kohak" - Dainichi Bloodline
    "Sumire" - Dainichi Bloodline
    "Yumeko" - Dainichi Bloodline

    "Botan" - Sensuke Bloodline
    "Hinagiku" - Dainichi Bloodline

    Doin more studying so I will add more on this...

  6. #16
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005


    All decendants of the butt-ugly magoi bloodline!!! Lest we forget.

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