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Thread: Can "Domestic Koi" get to the level of GC at America Koi Shows?

  1. #1
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Can "Domestic Koi" get to the level of GC at America Koi Shows?

    Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this, here in the states everyone buys Japanese Koi and nearly all of us has bought Domestic Koi in our start. My question is can someone here in the States produce Koi to win GC at major shows?

  2. #2
    Sansai
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    I believe it is only a matter of time until a domestic breeder produces a GC. Brett Rowley and Brady Brantwood are two highly respected individuals who also produce some excellent koi. Before you ask, no I do not happen own one of their koi. I am realitively new to the hobby and am struggling with a pond remodel before I buy any higher quality koi. My plan is to eventually have a few high quality Japanese koi and a few from both Brett and Brady. There are others who do have direct experience with these two gentlemen and their koi who speak very highly of their fish. It will happen.


    Steve

  3. #3
    Tategoi
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    Depends on your definition of 'major show', I guess.

    I think we'll never see a domestic GC win Gardena or San Diego. Partly because of all the excellent and affordable imported fish being brought in by west coast dealers.

    On the other hand, could we see a domestic win GC at a smaller regional show? Sure, I don't see why not.

    If a 'major show' is more than 200 fish entered then I don't see it happening. If it is more than 100 fish entered, then the possibility exists.

    You know some of Mr. Benbow's fish have done well in his local shows...

  4. #4
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I think it will be only a matter of time before great fish will be bred domestically to compete. Two really diligent workers have been named from the states in this thread and it won't be long others including maurice from the Uk, will be inching closer to the mark. I know UK judge Alan Coogan has developed an excellent relationship with shintaro which he could use should he decide to go that way.

    It's a learned internship. Not black magic. yes breeders are very expensive, but trust me....it's only a matter of time!

  5. #5
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    What is the price difference of say Brett and Brady's High Class Domestics compared to Japanese Koi?

  6. #6
    Tategoi
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    Quality to quality? I'd say about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.

    On the other hand, they sell very few (any??) $5000+ koi.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    I have 2 of Brady's Tosai Showa's, well see how they develop.

    Here's what Brett has on his site : http://www.brettsfishfarm.com/show_prizes.html

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    In time it will occur, but it will take more than waiting for a domestic breeder to produce "The Great One". Somebody has to raise it. And, they have to give it the care that a top Japanese-bred koi is given. And invest the time.

    When we say "domestic" in the U.S., we think of pond mutts. Guys like Matt McCann, Brady Brandwood, et al are using Japanese bloodlines. They are culling. They are keeping their eyes on ones they will grow a third year, maybe a fourth year .... They have a vision of where they want to go, and it is not the same goals for each. Maurice has suddenly gotten much attention in Britain for what he is doing, and the scale of it all. The time will come, if hobbyists put aside their biases and buy the koi, and not a label.

  9. #9
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    To breed a good koi you need good genetics, good husbandry skills, a good eye for culling, and a LARGE pool of fingerlings to cull from. Its a numbers game. The more fry you raise, the greater the probably that the GC is swimming in there among them.

    Western domestic breeders have can buy the genetics and develop the husbandry and culling skills. However, the number of koi fry being raised by serious western domestic breeders (excluding Ozark Fisheries and the other bait producers) is tiny compared to the numbers being grown in Japan. Momotaro alone raises about 20 million fry and selects a thousand or so from these for sale.

    I have no idea of the total number of fry grown in Japan each year. But if, for example, Japan annually grows 200 times more fry, then they are 200 times more likely to produce the best fish. Assume for a moment that, because of global demands, only 25% of these best Japanese fish are available to be purchased by domestic dealers/hobbyists in the west, but 100% of domestically produced koi are available to domestic dealers/hobbyists in the west. The probably is that a western domestic fish will be the GC once every (200 x 25% =) 50 years.

    Personally, I think that when a non-Japanese fish rises to the top of western domestic shows, that fish will be from China, or Korea (or perhaps Indonesia, Thailand, or Malaysia) - not a fish grown in the US or UK. Again, I disregard husbandry and culling skills and focus on who is going to grow the most fry. The aforementioned countries are more likely to devote the space and man-power to producing a lot of high-quality koi than the western world.

    Lets face it, growing koi in the US or UK is only marginally profitable at best. It is done for the love of the process. If Brett, Brady or Maurice care to dispute this, I will gladly eat my words. The land costs, labor costs, lost opportunity costs, etc. are such that koi farming in the US and UK will grow very slowly - if at all. The only thing that allows the Japanese to be major koi producers is existing infrastructure, cultural ties, and a lock on the market for the highest-priced fish. Over the next 20 years, that will probably change too with more and more production being shifted out of Japan.

    -steve hopkins

  10. #10
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Kinda curious, I know Japanese breeders retain their 5% to grow out to bigger koi do American breeders do the same? or do they just sell everything small?

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