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Thread: The Medicine Cabinet

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Rocklin, CA
    I think Mike has returned the thread to it's core.

    I'm not as scared as Mike re: PP. I think it is more useful; it can be used effectively against costia or chilo, for instance. I also combine PP and salt where I wouldn't combine MG+F and salt. This is likely my slightly irrational approach.

    I otherwise tend the same as Mike. I'm hesitant to treat at all but when I treat I want to treat well. Salt will go in at .1% every 12 hours. PP can be dosed daily through the filters at 1.5ppm. Both assume fairly robust biofilters.

    Salt at .3% - .4% should be reduced with regular water changes; 20-30% per week. Salt at .6% is sometimes a good thing but I worry a little about leaving that in for an extended period of time.

    Other things in the bag; topical treatments. I keep a mix of Neocide-3 on hand and use it in spray form as a last coating after cleaning wounds. I also like to have some kind of top coat on hand -- Debride ointment followed by a something else sticks for a little while but not longer than 24 hours in my experience. Q-tips, makeup sponges, etc., round out the topical applicators.

    Obviously (or not) a microscope is core. I've used a variety of substances to knock fish out and am now using clove oil since I've run out of MS-222. I've heard of people losing fish to clove oil and did have a close call with one fish (took 30 minutes to bring her back) tho'. But I'm also thinking it is less stress for me and less for the fish for the fish to be unconcious during treatment, and that's without shots.

    I think a show bowl is excellent for anesthetic bath. Nothing else really works as well as a show bowl. Good nets are also a requirement. I will bring my own net and bowl on many field calls. My microscope bag fits nicely in the bowl and the net fits right on top when detached from the pole. I don't like bringing my own sock nets; those are reserved for doing topical treatments on my own fish. And, yes, I have a sock net that holds water and one that does not. The one that holds water is excellent for transferring fish (show or otherwise) when water comes with, but this is not something I want when transferring to/from an anesthetic bath.

  2. #12
    Honmei keokoi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    [QUOTE=MikeM]The regulars on this board clearly share a "treat only if essential" philosophy.

    Lee & Joe: Trichodina may be best eradicated with PP, but I think using PP is just a little short of being as much a harm to the system as Trich is to the fish. I think I would try a Formalin & MG treatment, followed by water changes after about 48 hours and then salt at 0.6%. If that did not give the fish the upper hand, I guess I'd have to break down and use PP. I'm glad I only have to think about it in theory! QUOTE]

    MikeM, I would not put it in my system as well. But to use as a dip in a tub I would not hesitate to use it. MG/F woudl be my first choice to dump inn my pond if needed. But also I would be looking around in my filter to try to find where the parasite hotels are..... (Mulm)
    It's a living creature (chit happens)

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Orlando, Florida
    Roger: Roddy has done much to encourage the use of potassium permanganate as a shortcut for avoiding water changes and to compensate for undersizing filtration in relation to the fish load in a pond. I do not choose that approach for myself, not because I have a fear of PP, but because of the indiscriminate destruction PP causes.

    PP is a highly effective oxidizer, meaning that all organics are affected. These include the beneficial biofilm, the algae, the mucous coat on the koi and all the microbes, good and bad, inhabiting the pond. I prefer to rely on water exchange to eliminate the organics dissolved in the water, and efficient filtration that will remove undesirable organics from the system, thereby eliminating or reducing the habitat for the undesirable microbes.

    I understand that used with care the damage PP does to the biofilm will not be so great as to interfere with nitrification. And, used with care, the oxidation of the slime coat and gill filaments will not be so great as to expose the fish to immediate danger. Over time, the risks increase, both as a factor of chance, and because the repeated exposure of gills and tissues to oxidation has compounding effects. I have never seen a pond exposed to regular PP treatments that had a flourishing growth of green algae. That is instructive, I think. The algae community is very important to the conditioning of the water as part of the complete pond biota.

    I called my avoidance of PP "irrational" because I realize that there are times and circumstances where indiscriminate oxidation is the rational solution to a problem, such as Trichodina resistant to both salt and formalin treatments. And, the idea of using PP as a dip with new fish has merits and does not involve repeated exposures. Nonetheless, I would still try every other alternative until I had no other choice before using PP. I do not own any PP and have not had any in over 40 years. So, I think I am about as far at the opposite extreme from Roddy as one can get. You have probably observed the long debates between Roddy and JR over PP use. I consider JR's views on PP to be too moderate, although often somewhat immoderately stated.

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