Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 74
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: maybe the real reason porous stone works in showers...

  1. #21
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    3,826
    Mike,

    I am also a big time reef aquarium guy...been doing saltwater for 15 yrs. Anyway, we use something called the berlin method. This involves live rock (which is dead coral skeletons) This live rock has deep pores. This allows anerobic bacteria to occupy these spaces and lower nitrates. In addition, we use protein skimmers (which have been suggested for koi ponds, but I dont truly believe they would work too well.). The third component of most berlin systems is a Deep Sand bed. This sand bed is usually 2-4 inches deep and is rarely disturbed (except for small organisms which inhabit the sand). The purpose of this...is to allow anaerobic bacteria to inhabit the deeper sand, and aerobic bacteria to stay closer to the surface. What is interesting is the two types of bacteria can exist as close as 1/4 to 1/2 inch of each other within the sand bed. This can help us understand the size of porous media that may be needed for both types of bacteria to co-exist. I predict that someone will experiment with a type of deep sand bed in a koi pond filter eventually. It would just need to be an inert material that will not change the waters ph the way normal sand would. I also feel that if someone developed an effective freshwater protein skimmer, The only other filter we would need is a solids remover such as a vortex or mechanical filter. There are many things we can learn from the reef hobby, and I truly believe the Bakki shower is nothing more than using live rock in a freshwater setting. Not nearly as complicated and esoteric as most people on this board are making it!!!

  2. #22
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,198
    Brutucz,
    to say that Porous Media Showers aren't that special is Wrong (insert smilie here)
    It was a great advancement for reef tanks and PMS's might be a copycat...BUT it is still a great bit of Bio-engineering...and the Porous Media might be a suitable living area for all the bacteria needed thereby making the sand layer unneeded.
    Sweet technology when used on a 100 gallon tank or 100 ton pond...IF it works...can we just find out how....(BTW how many FIR are emitted by the dead coral ? I AM KIDDING!)

  3. #23
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    3,826
    True, that it is good bio engineering, but the media can be expensive. Imagine how much cheaper the sand bed would be. In any case...the future is protein skimming. Take the stuff out while its ammonia, and dont worry about nitrites or nitrates at all!!! Dont worry about bacteria, cycling or anything. It would make all the technology before it useless!!! Now lets get some engineers to work on it!!!


    I also don't understand why its so hard to see how it works. It's simple microbiology. Give the right strain of bacteria the evironment it requires (aerobic or anaerobic)..and the food it needs (ammonia,nitrites...etc.), and it will do exactly what we expect it too. Let any good microbiologist have at that cycled media for a few hours...take a few cultures and check the microscope a few times. I'm sure we will all know exactly what is happening rather quickly. This is science...not witchcraft!!

  4. #24
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Hakipu'u
    Posts
    1,383
    Here's a couple of tid-bits to add to the discussion:

    You guys have heard about the toxic un-ionized form of ammonia (NH3) and the less-toxic ionized form (NH4+). The relationship is pH dependent with more un-ionized ammonia at higher pH. The amount of un-ionized ammonia increases by a factor of about 15 as the pH rises from 7.5 to 8.5. It is important to remember that only the toxic un-ionized form of ammonia can be volatilized or driven off to the atmosphere as a gas. Thus, high rates of volatilization of ammonia only occur at pH levels which do not occur in most koi ponds.

    Tid-bit #2 is that anaerobes scavenge oxygen for respiration from a variety of sources. These include nitrate, manganese dioxide, ferrous iron oxides, sulfate and even carbon dioxide. We like some of the end products like nitrogen gas which is not toxic. We do not like some of the other end products like hydrogen sulfide and methane which can be toxic until they are gassed off to the atmosphere. The energetics of scavenging oxygen from these various sources are such that certain oxides are used up first. In general, nitrate is reduced first. After the nitrate is used up, manganese dioxide is used, then ferrous iron is converted to ferric iron, then sulfide is reduced to hydrogen sulfide. Finally, carbon dioxide if reduced to methane.

    -steve hopkins

  5. #25
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Very nice points, Steve. There could be very different results between a pond at a "perfect" pH 7.4 and soft water, and a pond at pH 8.0 and hard water. Or, more frustrating to the scientifically inclined, the results could be very similar, but for entirely different reasons. The idea that the operative process may differ among geographic regions based on water quality factors may frustrate everyone as we learn the multi-year results of hobbyists using these products.

    Brutuscz: Those are some challenging points you raise. My reef tank knowledge is superficial. I am more comfortable in the plant tank & limnology area. But like with Steve's reference to pH differences, he also points out the different processes occurring in the submerged soil strata, and if you compare these to the effects of live rock in reef aquaria, there are like results. The processes become somewhat different because of the different environments, but the bacteria involved are fundamentally doing the same things. The sand bed is different again. The sand bed operates to de-nitrify without producing the sulfides so long as organics do not get lodged in it. It is hard for me to imagine how it could be adapted to a koi pond, but perhaps someone can think outside the box and find a way.

    Luke: Fascinating stuff you have gotten us into.

  6. #26
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,198
    Bekko thanks for the xtra info.
    Brut Lava rockis cheap and the shower allows for the nitrgen and some ammonia to get out right then and there FAST
    MikeM, I just have to find out WHY these PMS work...this makes sense if it really exisits.

  7. #27
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Hakipu'u
    Posts
    1,383
    Oh, and one other thing...

    Some people studying detritus, biofilm and suspended bacterial flocks found that the anoxic layer can be very close to the surface if the film or flock is fairly dense. You can have anaerobic conditions and denitrification going on less than one millimeter (< 1/25 inch) below the surface of a biofilm. You can have anaerobic conditions and denitrification going on at the core of a tiny little speck of trash floating around in the pond.

    Ok, it is two other things...

    Remember that many of these little bacteria buggers are facultative anaerobes, which means they consume oxygen when it is available, but use nitrate and other oxides as terminal electron acceptors when there is not free oxygen available. Sort of AC/DC.

    -steve

  8. #28
    Jumbo gregbickal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toddville Iowa
    Posts
    564
    What is the difference between anerobic bacteria doing their thing in the void pockets in a submerged filter versus them doing that in a trickle tower?

    Im guessing the answer is the trickle tower will gas off their byproduct faster than in a submerged filter?

  9. #29
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    2,042

    Smile

    It would be like us running 100 yards at sea level as running 100 yards at 4000 feet elevation. Nitrification is more efficient in the presence of oxygen and the air at sea level is about 22% oxygen as compared to 7% oxygen for water. The aerobic autotrophs become super-charged and hungury.

  10. #30
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,198
    Bekko,
    Cool, what you are saying is what this guy was saying so I guess he wasn't blowing smoke....he didn't once mention FIR.
    Yeah Pickle it has to be above the water....or bubble the heck out of the submerged biomedia, Much better to have it out in nthe air.

    With vast amounts of water running through it and air all around the bacteria are probably as productive and healthy as they can be and therefore probably can go AC/DC with the flick of a switch, thus making the PMS even more effective.

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. What Is the Reason For Fasting?
    By yerrag in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 08-26-2013, 01:01 AM
  2. rock/stone selection
    By Minster49 in forum Pond Construction
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-20-2006, 05:05 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-30-2005, 10:33 PM
  4. Porous Media ...two topics in one...
    By luke frisbee in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 08-25-2005, 06:51 AM
  5. a reason or just sods law
    By simon in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-12-2005, 10:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com