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Thread: Tragedy again..microscope pics..HELP!!!

  1. #21
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    Northern California
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    Sorry to hear that happen again to you, Since my last parasite outbreak I have not purchase any more koi yet. My Qt is finally done, just start to fill water today, hopefully I can get a couple of the little ones this weekend. I think after a few weeks of uarantine, I'll do a PP dip just to be on the safe side, What is the dosage for a pp dip in a 10 gal container?

    Andrew

  2. #22
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Hey Andrew...Seems that the dosage of a PP dip is a big "secret!!!". No one seems to want to post it. Why? I have no idea. Gotta be a member of the double secret potassium permanganate clan...Shhh!! First rule of the pp clan...is there is no pp clan!!!

    Anyway, After blasting twice with form/mal green and once with fluke away...things seem ok. The three bloated fish are in a 250gal hospital tank. They are currently being treated with fungus clear by jungle labs. This is also and antibiotic treatment for bacteria...specifically dropsy. I hope it works..they seem ok so far, but still bloated.
    I only see very little flashing each day. But, I am unhappy to see any at all!!! I have done several water changes (with dechlor) and will blast one more time with form/mal green. If I see flashing after that, I will set up another hospital tank and treat flashers with praziquintel with metronidazole and acriflavin(parasite clear, by jungle labs).
    I scraped another fish yesterday and found nothing this time. I am waiting for my local koi health advisors to give me advice...I sent them all my slides and photo's. Hopefully, that will help. Just wanted to give everyone an update.
    by the way...what is the dosage for a PP dip?

  3. #23
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    It kind of is top secret, I have seen it, but didn't make any note of what it was, I remember it being a unbelievable PPM, and it is very critical on the exact PPM to how many seconds, yes seconds the fish is left in it.
    It's kind of like you have to know somebody who knows somebody
    I do know it isn't freely given away just because of the danger it may cause your fish............




    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz
    Hey Andrew...Seems that the dosage of a PP dip is a big "secret!!!". No one seems to want to post it. Why? I have no idea. Gotta be a member of the double secret potassium permanganate clan...Shhh!! First rule of the pp clan...is there is no pp clan!!!

    Anyway, After blasting twice with form/mal green and once with fluke away...things seem ok. The three bloated fish are in a 250gal hospital tank. They are currently being treated with fungus clear by jungle labs. This is also and antibiotic treatment for bacteria...specifically dropsy. I hope it works..they seem ok so far, but still bloated.
    I only see very little flashing each day. But, I am unhappy to see any at all!!! I have done several water changes (with dechlor) and will blast one more time with form/mal green. If I see flashing after that, I will set up another hospital tank and treat flashers with praziquintel with metronidazole and acriflavin(parasite clear, by jungle labs).
    I scraped another fish yesterday and found nothing this time. I am waiting for my local koi health advisors to give me advice...I sent them all my slides and photo's. Hopefully, that will help. Just wanted to give everyone an update.
    by the way...what is the dosage for a PP dip?

  4. #24
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Dec 2003
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    Orlando, Florida
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    11,128
    If you go to koivet.com & click on "medications" on left menu, it will take you to a list of medications. There are a couple of PP articles giving dosages.

  5. #25
    Nisai
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    Oct 2004
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    Land O Lakes, FL
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    First off, you should NEVER use formalin with a salt level above .1 (tops!), preferably .5 - and formalin really shouldn't be used in the presence of open sores (ulcers). Also, if water temp is at 80* or above, it's not recommended as it sucks O2 out of the water - even supplemental aeration is hard pressed to make up for the loss.

    I hope there is no "secret" as to why no one has posted the PP dip, other than that perhaps they don't have it written down somewhere. It is critical that you have an accurate gram scale. You need 8 grams of PP to *exactly* 10.5 gallons of pond water: this is a 200 PPM dip. Have 3 tubs: one is a holding tub for the fish (pre-dip), one is for the dip, and the third is a rinse tank. All should be well aerated. Take the fish from the holding tank, place into the dip tank - TIME FOR EXACTLY 2.5 MINUTES - remove to the rinse tank to recoup. If the fish rolls, remove it promptly.

    Please be advised that this is a "cure 'em or kill 'em" procedure: if the fish is not too weak, it will survive and be parasite free. If it's too weak, survival is not, shall we say, optimal. Look for areas on the fish that are brownish, tea-stained: those are the nuked parasites.

    As far as dropsy is concerned, survival rates are based on the cause. If the gills are pale, the fish has become anemic due to kidney failure and the prognosis is pretty grim. Most of the time, the kidney problems are a result of internal septicemia (bacterial infection). However, there are times when the fish will simply absorb water, usually due to a large, open ulcer - and the kidneys simply have a hard time getting rid of the extra water. If you can raise the salt level for the fish to, oh .6 or so, the extra salt will help the fish get rid of the water. This only works in the case where the fish has absorbed the water through a wound, and it is NOT the result of kidney failure.

    Antibiotics when a fish is dropsied is contraindicated. That includes medicated food. Most of the antibiotics have an adverse affect on kidneys - so the last thing you want to do is further stress the kidney.

    The use of injections and antibiotics are used too lightly: there is a snow-ball effect from their use. Antibiotics do not differentiate between "good" bacteria and "bad" bacteria; its use will frequently (as in almost always) affect the "good" bacteria in the gut that are required for the digestion of food. Then the fish is subjected to a period of time - very similar to coming out of winter - where it needs to be "babied" food-wise until the bacteria can return to normal.

    I hope I have not overstepped my boundaries on this board and that the information above will be helpful. If not, then someone should remove this post.

    Lee B.

  6. #26
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    Good post Lee!



    Quote Originally Posted by Lee B
    First off, you should NEVER use formalin with a salt level above .1 (tops!), preferably .5 - and formalin really shouldn't be used in the presence of open sores (ulcers). Also, if water temp is at 80* or above, it's not recommended as it sucks O2 out of the water - even supplemental aeration is hard pressed to make up for the loss.

    I hope there is no "secret" as to why no one has posted the PP dip, other than that perhaps they don't have it written down somewhere. It is critical that you have an accurate gram scale. You need 8 grams of PP to *exactly* 10.5 gallons of pond water: this is a 200 PPM dip. Have 3 tubs: one is a holding tub for the fish (pre-dip), one is for the dip, and the third is a rinse tank. All should be well aerated. Take the fish from the holding tank, place into the dip tank - TIME FOR EXACTLY 2.5 MINUTES - remove to the rinse tank to recoup. If the fish rolls, remove it promptly.

    Please be advised that this is a "cure 'em or kill 'em" procedure: if the fish is not too weak, it will survive and be parasite free. If it's too weak, survival is not, shall we say, optimal. Look for areas on the fish that are brownish, tea-stained: those are the nuked parasites.

    As far as dropsy is concerned, survival rates are based on the cause. If the gills are pale, the fish has become anemic due to kidney failure and the prognosis is pretty grim. Most of the time, the kidney problems are a result of internal septicemia (bacterial infection). However, there are times when the fish will simply absorb water, usually due to a large, open ulcer - and the kidneys simply have a hard time getting rid of the extra water. If you can raise the salt level for the fish to, oh .6 or so, the extra salt will help the fish get rid of the water. This only works in the case where the fish has absorbed the water through a wound, and it is NOT the result of kidney failure.

    Antibiotics when a fish is dropsied is contraindicated. That includes medicated food. Most of the antibiotics have an adverse affect on kidneys - so the last thing you want to do is further stress the kidney.

    The use of injections and antibiotics are used too lightly: there is a snow-ball effect from their use. Antibiotics do not differentiate between "good" bacteria and "bad" bacteria; its use will frequently (as in almost always) affect the "good" bacteria in the gut that are required for the digestion of food. Then the fish is subjected to a period of time - very similar to coming out of winter - where it needs to be "babied" food-wise until the bacteria can return to normal.

    I hope I have not overstepped my boundaries on this board and that the information above will be helpful. If not, then someone should remove this post.

    Lee B.

  7. #27
    Jumbo
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    SJ, CA
    Posts
    625
    B, there is no secret of PP dip dosage. Like Lee said, this is do or die kind of poisoning. I believe people are not that conformtable at sharing this doage because of the potential consequences.

    I have done a number of PP dip. 1gram to 1 US gallon. that give you 250PPM, and that is where you want it to be. Like Lee said, watch the temperature. put multiple airstones in the tank before dipping the koi. Here is the best part:
    leave the koi in there for about 3 minutes

    cover the tub with your net, or something soft. The koi is likely to jump given the stress of PP, and the sensation they may get from struggling bugs.

    watch the koi like a hawk while it is in there, and recite the bible from cover to cover while you wait.

    stan

  8. #28
    Sansai Akinosan's Avatar
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    Feb 2005
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    283
    Just remember that different fish have different tolerances for medications, or in this case poisons, just as humans do. There is no hard and fast rule!

  9. #29
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Lee ..great post, thanks!!! The dropsied fish are in my 250gal hospital tank. I added the antibiotics several days ago. The thing is..they dont look weak..they are swimming and eating fine..just big and bloated, no ulcers anywhere. I really believe either costia or flukes..caused a secondary bacterial infection that hit the kidneys. As for my main pond..After 2 treatments of form/mal green then 2 treatments of fluke away (with water changes and dechlor in-between...and no salt!!!)...I have done several water changes and today I started dosing koizyme. If there is pseudomonas/aeromonas...I want it dead!!! The fish look fine...active and eating very well. I do see the occasional flash...but not often...maybe 1 or 2 flashes per day. When I am done with the 3 treatment koizyme regimin..I will do several water changes over several days. Then bomb the pond 1 more time with form/mal green. I will then remove any fish that scrape and treat with praziquintel in a hospital tank. I am not to keen on trying the PP dip at this point. I also found a dosage for treating the whole pond with PP that is one teaspoon per 600gal of water. I may try this if nothing else works and I still see flashing. Let me know what you think of my regimine. Is there anything else to do for the dropsied fish?

    Lee..the only problem I have with what you wrote is not treating a kidney infection with antibiotics. In people, we treat them with antibiotics. If we dont, they simply get worse until the patient dies from renal failure. I understand that antibiotics can be hard on the kidneys...but I dont see an alternative in people or fish? Will it kill good bacteria? Yes...all antibiotics will do this to some extent....but I still see them as neccessary. My real question should be ...what is the best antibiotic, dosage and administration for a fish with a kidney infection? I definitely want to try and save these 3 fish!!
    Thanks for all the help guys!!!

  10. #30
    Sansai marco's Avatar
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    Oct 2004
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    I would take Baytril 2.5%, but here is what I found for you with other antibiotics.
    And 2 good books:
    Step by step -Advanced Koļ diagnosis & Treatments by Duncan Griffiths
    The Koļ Doctor - Your guide to keeping healthy Koļ by Maarten Lammens

    Baytril 2.5%: (concentration 22.7 mg/ml) 14 mg/kg of fish I.M /day during 5 days

    Azactan : (concentration 100mg/ml) 40 mg/kg of fish I.M /day during 5

    Nuflor(300 mg/ml) 0.3ml for 6 Inches of fish IM
    0.8ml for 10 Inches of fish IM
    1.0ml for 14 Inches of fish IM
    1.5ml for 18 Inches of fish IM
    2.0ml for 22 Inches of fish IM
    2.7ml for 26 Inches of fish IM
    only once a week, but not in the muscle of pectoral because you can have local necrosis

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