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Thread: Butterfly 'koi' are they koi????

  1. #81
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Not all your theory is flawed but I'm not talking theory with regards the 'fancy' goldfish, I'm talking facts. They become more and more deformed as they age, they die younger, they are more susceptible to ill health in general.

    Oh and sorry kid, but I'm a scientist, and that makes me better placed to talk evolution and genetics than a medic. If you want to go heavy down that route we can but I'm not really interested in bringing science in to my hobby if possible. I try to leave that stuff at work and enjoy the hobby at the ground level hence why I haven't resorted to pages of jargon that wouold mean nothing to a lot of people.

    As already posted above, comparing a skin type change with a body shape change is not even close. By that reconing each colour should be a different entity too as they all have different skin.
    [email protected] doubt your better placed to talk genetics as it is heavily studied by all doctors. Maybe fancy goldfish have problems, but it is because of the specific traits they are trying to bring out. I doubt longer fins on a koi will hurt it in any way. If anything...infusing different genetics will make it hardier. If you think about it skin type might be more significant to the health of a koi than fin length. Skin is the largest organ in most animals. It is usually the first line of defense against infection. So...the lack of scales in a doitsu will do more to affect a koi's health than finnage. Something to think about.

  2. #82
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz
    [email protected] doubt your better placed to talk genetics as it is heavily studied by all doctors. Maybe fancy goldfish have problems, but it is because of the specific traits they are trying to bring out. I doubt longer fins on a koi will hurt it in any way. If anything...infusing different genetics will make it hardier. If you think about it skin type might be more significant to the health of a koi than fin length. Skin is the largest organ in most animals. It is usually the first line of defense against infection. So...the lack of scales in a doitsu will do more to affect a koi's health than finnage. Something to think about.
    Sounds fair, I can't argue with any of that.

  3. #83
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Sounds fair, I can't argue with any of that.
    Now admit it...you really want that utsuri butterfly!!!! I know I do...lol. Take care and enjoy!!

  4. #84
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz
    Now admit it...you really want that utsuri butterfly!!!! I know I do...lol. Take care and enjoy!!
    Maybe if you could lend me your surgical scissors...........a little snip here and a bit of a trim there........................

  5. #85
    Honmei
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    Brutus

    I keep seeing you refer to a "Utsuri butterfly" picture. May I ask where this picture is? I'd like to take a look.

    For the record, its not just the length of the fins Brutus, its the shape as well.

    Steve

  6. #86
    Oyagoi
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    Turn a doitsu and a butterfly loose in a pond of bass, which gets eaten first? Why? Which has the most "genetic disability" in this case?

    Plenty of wild doitsu around, never caught a butterfly, not once, outside a protected koi pond or fish farm. Survival is an important quality.

    OTOH, I've absolutely no doubt butterflies can tolerate much worse water quality much longer than koi. Thier hardiness and adaptability make them a better choice than koi for most water gardeners.

    I like genetics and science, mix 'em all the time with art and beauty, what koi are about for me. 'Course I work more as a scientist than a koi breeder, it pays a lot better.
    Brett

  7. #87
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
    I keep seeing you refer to a "Utsuri butterfly" picture. May I ask where this picture is? I'd like to take a look.

    For the record, its not just the length of the fins Brutus, its the shape as well.

    Steve
    The utsuri butterfly is on page 6...its from pan intercorp...love that fish!!!

  8. #88
    Sansai
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    as a koi breeder i like to look for perfection in say a Kohaku, body shape fins skin etc.

    when i see a longfin i see something so far away from kohaku perfection that i have no interest in it (ragged fins and poor body shape) i feel many Japanese breeders may feel the same way, however it would not shock me to learn that many Japanese breeders will start to breed longfin if they have a good market in the USA as it will put food on the table.

    i also id like to hear more from the Japanese about who started the whole thing with the longfins as im not convinced by the born in the USA story so far, and more about the original long finned indonesian carp....pictures of one of those anyone?

    to me i like the strenth and clean lines of the nishikigoi standard as it is today and im rather saddened that they are going the way of the goldfish with these longfins.

    still if you like them, then you like them but theyre not for me.

    kevan.

  9. #89
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    but...with time..the ragged fins and body shape will be improved. Just like the original kohaku didn't have the wonderful hi it has today...it has been improved. Look at the quality of the two pictures on page 6...the longfins quality is rapidly improving. I am thinking very optimistically of the future of these fish.

    Let me just mention...I am NOT the worlds advocate for the butterfly koi. I have never had more than 3 of these in my pond at any one time. I simply like them and believe they are equal to any other koi. I believe they should be fully accepted and shown in their own class...with their own standard including fin quality. This will allow breeders to strive for improvement. When you see the difference between a showa from 30 yrs ago and compare it to one from today...you can see the improvement. I am hoping for the same thing to happen with the butterfly.

  10. #90
    Sansai
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    story of long finned koi that dates the long fin story right back to 1989 and Japan...

    http://www.koi.com/reference/unique/3.php

    a little about the various strains of common carp...

    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi....x?cookieSet=1

    kevan.

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