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Thread: clone koi ????

  1. #1
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    clone koi ????

    reading other threads about domestic/j koi, US bred GC etc...

    1) i just want to know if there is any scientist out there trying to
    clone koi? (I think there was a law about clone human, but not koi
    or any specific animal)

    2) If so, can "cloned koi" qualify for koi show?

    3) Also, just want to know if anyone who wants to clone their best
    koi?

    Thanks,
    --Dinh

  2. #2
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    check this out
    Cloning your favorite pet....

    -shopkins

  3. #3
    Oyagoi
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    Koi have been cloned in Japan, several years ago, they were aka muji.

    The problem with cloning koi is that while the genetics of a cloned koi would be identical to the original, the appearance would not be the same. The colors and patterns in the skin are not going to be exactly like the original, they are not 100% determined by genetics.

    Cloned cows do not have the same patterns on them as thier originals. It would be the same in a cloned koi. So the whole point is kinda lost.

    Brett

  4. #4
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    Thanks Brett; I never knew that.


    Sounds like you gonna miss the blunt of the storm. I hope you weather well what does come your way. I'm hoping a big Ogon blows out of your mud pond into mine.

    Mike

  5. #5
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Smile

    Identical twins is when one egg is fertilized by one sperm cell and then divides and separates, two identical cells will result. I have seen this in humans of course, but how about cattle and other furry animals ?

    Would I clone my best koi? No , I wouldn't wish that on the world, one's enough!

    An identical twin would be a "natural" clone.
    Carp: (1963) in China, embryologist Tong Dizhou cloned a fish. He published the findings in a Chinese Science Journal that was never translated into English.

  6. #6
    Jumbo
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    someone cloned her beloved cat in nor cal last year. Total bill 50K, nothing guaranteed except a cloned cat was delivered. Owener was said to be 'very happy'. But for 50K, you might as well buy a great koi.

    stan

  7. #7
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saratogatan
    someone cloned her beloved cat in nor cal last year. Total bill 50K, nothing guaranteed except a cloned cat was delivered. Owener was said to be 'very happy'. But for 50K, you might as well buy a great koi.

    stan
    $50K? God Lord!!! If cloning could get you an exact copy of what you want then cool...but genetics is playing god. Cloning is the same gamble as raising tosai and far cheaper...

  8. #8
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Even identical twins can have Biological differences. Identical twins do have the same genes but never the same mitochondria which also contains genetic material.
    Identical twin heifers do occur but may not have completely identical color markings.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    over in themudpond.com i started this thread...it ain't got any data behind it but is just my rambling mind playing with what it was given...be interested to know if any of ya got any info to the contrary....

    "This ain't gonna be easy connecting these DOTS....

    In Art one of the things that makes something look interesting is when the veiwer can visualize how the pattern was put on the canvas or pot by the MOVEMENT of the artist..or the movement of the pot or canvas, or the movement of the pigment/glaze/paint after it was applied to the canvas/pot.

    NOW FIRST UNDERSTAND THAT...when looking at a static object the mind's eye visualize the movement that was needed made the static object come to be. And that subconscious stream of thought makes the conscious mind "like" the pattern.

    THE ONES THAT UNDERSTAND THAT CAN KEEP READING....the ones that don't need to either reread the above postulate and then continue once they "get it" or just stop reading this all together cuz it isn't going to make sense unless you do...

    Now with this as a basis of how I have learned to appreciate "art", and my disturbing inability to just accept that koi patterns are "Art" made without movement, and randomly occur for no other reason than man was able to bring them forth. I can't and i don't.

    Now I have to bring in something Brett once said on a thread where the topic was that they should "clone" the Best koi...
    Brett said that clones from any ONE koi would have DIFFERENT PATTERNS.....and that doesn't make sense to the casual quasi-geneticist that I am....seems to me that if the same genes were used the pattern would be the same...but Brett says it don't, and Brett's only been wrong once that I have ever known of....

    Summary of the above---

    Art/pattern exists because it is a product of movement.
    Genetically Identical Koi clones will have a variety of patterns.

    therefore genetics don't create the patterns.


    SO WHAT DOES....
    Well I believe that genetics have an influence on the pattern by providing the quantity and quality of the colors and maybe more...
    But I think the patterns might be iMost greatly influenced by the embryonic fry moving within the egg in particular how it reacts with the egg shell or the fry skin laying up against it self at some very early on level (...and in realtion to what is happening in the environment that the embryo is forming).


    This is just my thoughts, nothing proven....just koi pond dreamings..trying to figure the "why" and the "how".....


    well That was the "how" the pattern forms...and some of you remember the ramble i had about the variations within the genetics of carp and how that strategy works to keep the koi genetic code continuing through time....but the WHY....
    Why would a koi embryo's color not be better fixed at the time of conception by simple genetics (and if this were the case then an outstanding percentage of the fry would be IDENTICAL in pattern to the SINGLE parent.....but it's been said that that ain't how it happens so...
    well the reason WHY it would be better for koi pattern< and to some extent the colors, to be determined during the later embryonic stages is that the Environment could influence greater variation with out having to utilize the dna as a storage site for all the variation....the DNa just needs to have the program in it that activates the Color/Pattern component during an embryonic stage....so the advantage would be that an unlimited variety could be thrown...this doesn't sound like much of an advantage but add it to my other part of the "why"...
    by having pattern and color determined during the time the fry is embryonic And having the color be somewhat determined by the environment at that time, then the color/pattern could be set closer to the time inwhich the koi must live.

    I'm a bit bored with writing about that aspect, but riddle me this batman.....

    if a koi keeper would artificially breed one male to one female and release those eggs into ponds with radically different temps, salinities, Sunshine....wave movement.....

    Well I just wonder if it would show some different Color/patterns associated with enviromental factors while the fry were developing....

    just thinkin' "

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