Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 41

Thread: A few words to put things in perspective

  1. #31
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    1,230
    one thing to add to that strategy wise, is do not add an option with a price range within $50-60 of the $140 banner, if you do alot folks who have banners now might drop down and decrease your revenue. If you add a $10-$30 option, a big gap in terms of both money and quality and visibility of the ads, is the way to start, until you have a bunch more advertisers, then put more options in between. Hope that helps.

  2. #32
    Fry Carlton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Staffordshire.UK.
    Posts
    2

    Brady has it in one.

    Professionals,...
    Why all the fanfare? Why not just remove any posts that are too commercial for this board, or send a private e-mail to anyone that seems to be pushing the limits of the Koi-Bito policy? The way this thread is balanced at the moment every Professional that has posted here is wondering if HE or SHE is the one being spoken of when someone says "You know who you are!!!".

    The Professionals in our hobby are the ones with advanced knowledge, and up-to-date information,... and they contribute a great deal to this board. Their contribution of knowledge plays a big part in making this board "legitimate" as a source for information and answers. I think "blanket scoldings" can be offensive and insulting. Be specific, scold offenders directly and privately,... the pros that contribute their time and valuable knowledge deserve respect too! If we look at the history of Koi BB's we can see that the "party" goes where the great minds of our hobby go.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady Brandwood

  3. #33
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,187
    Quote Originally Posted by junglegeorge12
    I still believe you need a seperate page for adverts that range in price from $20/mo to $150, depending on size and location. Make it accessible from the forum pages, so someone can just say click on the link above and look for ..... Give your current customers paying for ads preference in placement and size. The banners will eventually get full, and you can add more later.
    I don't think that a separate page will work, if there's no content there.

    It works like this for small businesses, once they get used to paying you $10-20 a month, and see a little revenue come in, why bumping up to $40-50 is no biggie, then after a while $100, then $150, then hundreds a month and full page ads in the mag. That's why alot of mags have a cheap classifieds section, to get people rolling.
    In case you haven't noticed, KB isn't the mag for the "budget hobbyist". I don't mean that in a snobbish way either. I'll leave the classifieds for other magazines to sort out, as experience tells me that classifieds and top-quality content and sponsors just don't go hand in hand. Experience also tells me that many people will fight tooth and nail if you try and raise the price later on them for goods or services that they are currently receiving at a lesser price. I think that's just human nature. What's to keep my current sponsors from becoming bitter at having to subsidize the newcomers, and either drop or downgrade their contributions to match? I think that there has to be a minimum "buy-in" price if you want to roll with Koi-Bito. Someone might sell a product and make that $100 right there. I'm merely charging that for a whole month of exposure...is a few dollars a day that unreasonable?

    Building on that, when I first started the magazine, there were no discounts for me. For the printing, postage, equipment, software, etc. etc. and I might ad ADVERTISING that I also had to pay for in the beginning to let people know that Koi-Bito even existed. One magazine gave me a lot of grief over wanting to advertise as I'm a competitor. I'm always willing to help people, but I'm also keenly aware that some people will take advantage of a situation as long as you allow them to. Sad, but true.


    You have to remember, that for an advertiser, the goal is revenue for their business, not keeping your mag afloat. Most folks will be really hesitant to put out alot of money without seeing some fruit first. But smaller chunks are much easier to 'risk' at first. Speaking from real world experience, this is what will happen if you do that.
    Fair enough, but you also have to remember that my goal is to make a modest living from the magazine, not to become a trading stall for freeloaders either. If there was no risk in this world, there would be no progress either. Indeed, if there was no risk, there would be no Koi-Bito and we wouldn't be here on this forum having this discussion. I think those that are in business need to appreciate that fact as well. Anyone who's followed the magazine for any amount of time and look at the developments in the koi market as a consequence should clearly be able to see the fruits.

    I know a great deal about what goes on in the professional side of the koi hobby. Believe it or not, I know who's spending money on facilities, equipment, etc. and laying out capital. I also know who is not. With a few exceptions, I don't think that a little advertising is going to drive anyone to the poor house. I think that what I'm charging is in line with (and in most cases LESS) than what other magazines charge. I know for a fact that my production costs are much higher as well. So I'm only asking a fair price. Anyone who can't afford the small amount I charge for the smallest of ads may want to reconsider being in the business. Whenever I really want to do something, I find a way to make it happen. Someone that says they can't find a hundred or so dollars month is either not being creative, not really taking their business seriously, or flat out being dishonest. It's all a matter of perspective, and many people simply have a problem with paying for something that's not tangible like hard goods are, even if they clearly understand the benefit. Unless they can see a physical product, they don't think that you've earned your fee and will continue on trying to get what they want for free. I also think that some feel that they're entitled to free publicity at the expense of others because of their level of knowledge, whether actual or self-perceived. Many professionals understand the value of KB, whether they advertise or not. They simply wouldn't be here otherwise, and it's as simple as that.



    One, alot of folks will become members to be able to advertise, and most will subscribe to the magazine at some point.

    Two, alot of folks will surf those pages looking for competitive pricing on products they find out about in the chat forums. It will become a place to send folks who will see many ads, instead of posting links to sites in the forum all the time, people will being to direct folks to your ads page. That will produce increased hits and volume for all the businesses advertising there.

    Three, smaller and moms and pops businesses will be able to afford ads right away and to stand up and buy the more expensive ads in time. They will appreciate you forever and be loyal supporters of your magazine for helping their dream come true. Then your magazine will probably last at least as long as they all live, and they will pass it to the next generation.
    Competitive pricing from the KB site? That can't be a good thing. I don't wish to become the priceline.com of the koi world. As I said before, we get well over 3,000 unique visitors a day, on some days even more. All I'm looking for is a little fairness here from those that are gaining exposure. If we can be frank, there's a lot of "Mom and Pop" businesses that have no aim of ever going solo with that business, and simply enjoy the pocket cash or discounts that can be had. Now, I'm not chastising them for doing so, but it does tend to drag those down that are investing money, and have the breadth and width to offer top quality support for their customers rather than just push products. I also think that they shouldn't expect this site to serve as a platform for their self-promotion either. I have bills just like everyone else.

    Many people had mailed me privately after this thread started to inform me that they were in fact in the business. These folks had done such a good job of separating their vested interests from their participation in this board, that I had no idea that they were in business. Needless to say, without me saying so much as a word to them, they already had a keen sense of fairness, and their behavior speaks volumes.
    Last edited by Brian; 09-29-2005 at 08:40 PM.
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  4. #34
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,187
    Why all the fanfare? Why not just remove any posts that are too commercial for this board, or send a private e-mail to anyone that seems to be pushing the limits of the Koi-Bito policy? The way this thread is balanced at the moment every Professional that has posted here is wondering if HE or SHE is the one being spoken of when someone says "You know who you are!!!".
    Brady, if I just started removing posts that I deemed too commercial, there would be an uproar. Some are very blatant, but others are more subtle and effective. If I were to delete posts such as these, the normal reader who didn't see them in the same light that I do would wonder why "that Brian is so uptight" and "what did poor so-and-so do to deserve that?"

    As Tony mentioned, I'm in an unenviable position and don't appreciate being put there...I would hope that folks would have enough respect for me not to do that. I lose either way and ending being the bad guy when I decide to make a stand.

    The Professionals in our hobby are the ones with advanced knowledge, and up-to-date information,... and they contribute a great deal to this board. Their contribution of knowledge plays a big part in making this board "legitimate" as a source for information and answers. I think "blanket scoldings" can be offensive and insulting. Be specific, scold offenders directly and privately,... the pros that contribute their time and valuable knowledge deserve respect too! If we look at the history of Koi BB's we can see that the "party" goes where the great minds of our hobby go.
    Now I don't believe that statement is completely accurate or fair to those not on the professional side. There's many people that share their knowledge and time here without having any vested interest in doing so. The hobbyists are the ones that keep the same koi in great condition for years on end, and many of the best are extremely knowledgable. I won't toot their horns either, but the biggest contributors to this board aren't in the business. If you go back and research the post history, you'll see that this is indeed the case. Many times a "mere" hobbyist would make a professional lose face in terms of koi knowledge, and the same goes even here in Japan. Everyone is deserving of respect, but I think that the board needs to be respected in that if you are displaying items that you have for sale, that we have to call it what it is: Advertising.

    I do appreciate everyone's contributions...I really do. I just hope those that are earning revenue as a result of sharing will appreciate my contribution too. I think that the party will "go" wherever people feel most at ease and where they can get knowledge that's not loaded, and transparent with respect to motives. Please do keep in mind that to have a party, that you need a host to provide the venue. Undermining the host's livlihood is never a smart thing if you want to party to continue.

    Again, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here...but rather just let my thoughts be known.

    Best regards,
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  5. #35
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    1,230
    'Fair enough, but you also have to remember that my goal is to make a modest living from the magazine, not to become a trading stall for freeloaders either. If there was no risk in this world, there would be no progress either. Indeed, if there was no risk, there would be no Koi-Bito and we wouldn't be here on this forum having this discussion. I think those that are in business need to appreciate that fact as well. Anyone who's followed the magazine for any amount of time and look at the developments in the koi market as a consequence should clearly be able to see the fruits.'

    The first sentence is understood, that was why I suggested what I did, to reduce the number of freeloaders and at least get something from them. It's like an amusement park I ran, the folks who don't buy tickets or cannot afford them, (we can argue all day long over whether they could afford them or not, it's irrelevant if they aren't diggin in their pocket and coughing it up) They can still buy drinks, snacks, and $1-$5 items all day long.(not that ads should be that cheap, I am just illustrating a principle)

    I don't think you have to worry about becoming a pricester.com for koi. If that does happen though, make sure you are getting a small percent of every transaction.......

    I have also found level of income does not determine available cash. Many people who are successful are already overextended. It is much easier to get a person like that to go an extra $30-50 than $140. Once they see some fruit and income from that, another jump up is much easier. We are talking about prying wallets open for another monthly, not venture capital.

  6. #36
    Jumbo
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Monroe, NC USA
    Posts
    518

    Many thanks Brian,...

    Hi Brian,

    Thanks for returning your thoughts on my comments above. The thing that makes me uncomfortable regarding board hosts and their rules is this: a web board is a public interactive communication tool (a new technology in our society) - ANYONE can post their thoughts there, so given this, a certain amount of freedom needs to be allowed, in order for it to be totally interactive. Otherwise the board can become too "biased", where statements can be posted but not answered.

    As an example: If a character named EUROTORI comes on the board and submits a post titled "THE BRITISH WILL NEVER BREED A KOI THAT WILL WIN GRAND CHAMPION",... then Maurice should have the freedom to also post and clarify with photos, and offer a debate that EUROTORI is not correct,... and he should be able to do this without it being labelled commercial. Also, if a poster states that R. WIM pumps aren't any good,... then R. WIM himself, or any other poster should have the freedom of speech to debate that claim. Also, in a public interactive forum, if the board host has sold an ad for a filter manufacturer, the forum should still remain unbiased when someone posts that they aren't happy with the filter manufacturer's products.

    These are the type scenarios that board hosts should be careful to not disrupt with rules, if a forum is truly an interactive forum open to the public. Blatant misuse of a forum for self promotion is understood to be taking advantage, but I feel the forum hosts have a responsibility to insure their rules don't infringe too heavily on freedoms.

    Brian, I have been in the entertainment business for a long time, where the FCC, Actors, Writers, & Photographers Unions, Copyrights and Trademarks, and subjects of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Press, are all integrated, so there are elements of the web that I view a little differently than some. "Message Boards" are a unique new media. I'm curious to see where it all goes.


    "There's many people that share their knowledge and time here without having any vested interest in doing so. The hobbyists are the ones that keep the same koi in great condition for years on end, and many of the best are extremely knowledgable."

    Obviously in my post earlier I was speaking for the "professionals" only, because they were the ones that were being pointed out. All of a board's visitors make it function and give it a "personality",... the pros, the very generous Koi Judges, the hobbyists, both high-end and beginners! Without them all there would be no boards.

    I have no gripes, I would just like to ensure that our professional posters have the freedom to keep things in balance, and that any poster has the freedom to share their concerns openly without the influence or restrictions that commercialism can bring. I felt this thread was pounding on the industry pros a little too harshly.

    Koi-Bito the Magazine is an incredible publication!!! I know ALL of us thank you for your work! You've brought we the Koi World something that we needed, and are doing it first-class! Be assured that is not the subject here.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady Brandwood

  7. #37
    Jumbo
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    SJ, CA
    Posts
    625
    i don't want to jump in, but I can't resist.

    In a business, especial internet based business with a free BB, drawing the lines between 'free speech', information exchange, and 'ad' is always hard. And creating the ad teiring system is even harder as you can mess up your ad revenue. That is why all successful ad-revenue based internet joins has good sized tech stuff, marketers and bill collectors to make whole thing spins. I don't think that is what brian intends to do.

    the line we can draw can be as simple as :

    - information posted should not benfit the poster, directly and indirectly, materially and, or, financially.

    I believe majority of the people who come to this board are honarable people, and that line should be OK.

    stan

  8. #38
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    1,230
    'creating the ad teiring system is even harder as you can mess up your ad revenue. '-from stan's post

    I find that to be totally untrue, teiring is already done by brian, he has different size mag ads, different color options, etc
    Every internet based ad company I have ever seen operates on teir systems based on size, placement(top or bottom of page), and other options such animation, flash etc--all he would have to do is carry what he is already doing in the mag to the site, I have yet to see an advertising business be successful selling only one kind of ad, greatly limits their customer base and people today like the walmart concept, choose from many options at one stop---the only valid arguement there might be that too many options requires more time and maintenance and work to create the platform for them all.

    '- information posted should not benfit the poster, directly and indirectly, materially and, or, financially' stan's post

    great theory, will never work in reality unless you expect people to be perfect, which they are not and will never be on earth, perhaps in heaven==also createsa c onflict for those who believe in something aqnd sell it due to that, then they cannot post??? even if they see someone making a costly and grave error????

    for anything to be successful it has to grounded in reality and deal with folks for the way they really are--truth is it is hard ot get folks to committ to largge monthly's, smaller ones ar emuch easier, and then increasing that is even easier once fruit has been seen, that is just the way people are, theory that does not take into account the reality of the way humans are and respond to things is basically useless information for another world, often those ideas are someone's view of heaven or a perfect earth will be, though noble and wonderful, they simply won't work on this side of heaven,
    the things I recommended are things I know for fact and by real world eperience work on this side of heaven---anyone can disagree, but let's see their own track record of success first

  9. #39
    Sansai Arthur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    174

    Brian - A lot of professional posters are OK ...

    Brian,

    I like the fact that you put this discussion right here in the open.

    The reality is that several so called "professionals" post here without ever mentioning their koi business. I have seen Brady, Brett, Maurice do so (and Tony and I have too, even though we pay for advertising).

    The thing is all reliable koi breeders and dealers have one thing in common: sell more koi and related products. The best way to do that is not through blant advertising but through getting people to understand what they really need to have koi thrive in their ponds.

    Brian, I can tell you the facts right here: advertising does very little to grow a koi business, word of mouth does the work over 99% of the time. Although relatively unknowned, because of the quality of the fish we import, we have shipped koi from Hawaii to Rhode Ihsland.

    The Koi-Bito in my view is an invaluable tool for hobbyists and shoud not be tainted with advertising at all. Adverts (paying) should be contained. Unsollicited advertisements should be deleted (while the poster will be advised of advertising options).

    FWIW
    Arthur

  10. #40
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    1,230
    I also want to add to those things brian, that those things are my perspective from my experiences. Lots of other folks have other just as valid experiences. I do not expect you to do what I think I would do if in your shoes, because this is not my business, it is yours. And I am not in your shoes, you are. And you are the one who has to continue to wear them. I simply hope sharing my perspective with you helps you in your thought processes about your decisions.

    This is your site, and you run it, noone has the right to come along and tell you how you should do it. My experience with people is that many of the smarter ones find very creative ways to control others for their benefit, often without their victims even realizing it. Experience is what helps me to identify who is really up to what, and thus be able to tell if I am on the right track for me or for them or for the hobby and the customers.....

    just food for thought

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. perspective
    By JasPR in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 145
    Last Post: 07-30-2009, 02:23 PM
  2. these two words popped into my head....
    By luke frisbee in forum Outside
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 12:38 AM
  3. A Little Perspective
    By MikeM in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-09-2008, 09:43 AM
  4. renewed perspective?
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-30-2006, 02:32 AM
  5. What words to this momo sanke will be?
    By monscine in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-23-2006, 09:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com