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Thread: Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

  1. #21
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear
    I think a few of you are missing what he has set out to do here. From what I read keeping everything the same (including regular siphoning of sediment and the same 10% water change regimin as before) is an important part of the experiment. Keeping all things exactly as they were before allows an accurate observation of any change caused exclusively by the BS/BH addition. Any other changes at this point would skew the experimental model he has constructed and call any improvement or decline into question as to what was the true cause.
    As it stands his model will only reflect results produced exclusively by the BS/BH. Perhaps when this addition has had time to completely stabilize and the experiment is complete other changes in his regime can be tried if he wishes to perform a "new" experiment .
    Actually his set up does NOT allow for the PMS using Bakki Media to show its effects..IF it did then the "sediment" would not be kept from passing through the shower AND be held within the system.
    "Exclusivity" as an addition is NOT what a PMS is about...

  2. #22
    Jumbo
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    Amen Carl. Amen

  3. #23
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by James P
    What a hoot reading this thread!
    ... Keep taking notes and trying to remain in passionate about the results as that would be the kiss of death in terms of objectivity. ...Any bright bulbs out there get it?
    Nope. Must be too stupid to keep up with your obviously superior intellect. Since you have already done an experiment of your own I guess if somebody decides to do a different one for himself it is just redundant and a complete waste of time.
    BTW. No BS/BH Cukoo clock here. Don't have one. Never have. Just homemade everything of my own design. And apart from one problem after a thunderstorm, I have perfect water. Not bad for a lowly knownuthin'.
    P.S. I think the term is "dispassionate", and if you re-read your post I believe you may notice that you failed miserably to follow your own advice.

  4. #24
    Sansai
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    It didn't look to me like JR was insulting the methods used in this test, so much as adding his own experience with the media. The sarcasm and biting wit are just part of JR's personality - get over it

    I do disagree with Butterfly's "you need more plants" statement, though - with the number of koi keepers who absolutely REFUSE to allow plants in their koi ponds - there would be an awful lot of nitrate problems out there if you needed plants.

    While I realize I was incorrect about the "collecting in the trays" thing - it still drives home the point. BH worshippers consistently claim the media magically removes solids from the system - the sediment coming from the midwater pickups would seem to indicate that, as any logical person would expect, the shower is simply pulverizing the crap out of the... crap.

    And note I said BH worshippers - there are many who just say "hey, I use the filter and it works great". There's nothing wrong with that - if you want to pay that kind of money for a hunk of clay, and it keeps your water clean, more power to you. The worshippers are in a whole different class, though.

  5. #25
    Tosai Carloskoi's Avatar
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    i have a huge TT using 75 milk crates filled with Matala. when i first set it up about a year ago i had a huge string algae growth in the pond. the algae was much less but the first few months i didn't have a great water distribution over the media. about three months ago i made a drip plate with hundreds of holes to distribute the water.

    since then the nitrates have dropped to almost unmeasurable. the water is clearer, there is less sediment, DOC's are much less also.

    i believe there is less sediment as BH proponents claim as more crap is metabolized or is the word mineralized. DOC's have decreased also i believe as a result of mineralization. when first set up there was so much foam for weeks it looked like a major PP treatment. the picture with the foam is two weeks after set up.

    all without BH media.

    Carl
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.-tt-12-17-04.jpg   Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.-foaming-two-weeks.jpg  

  6. #26
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    That's right valarc, I wasn't commenting on Papabears experiment AT ALL? I guess he's a tad sensitive. And yes, dispassionate is the word I should have used.

  7. #27
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Talking Not my experiment , it belongs to dtbh.

    James P.
    It isn't my experiment and I'm too old to worry with being sensitive. Years ago when the Oprah crowd was busy telling men to get in touch with their femenine side I found mine, and it was PMS . I love a good ascerbic wit. Hang around and you'll discover mine. What I don't like is demeaning, condecending, arrogance; and that is the way your post came off whether you intended it to or not. Besides, if BS/BH systems are just so much B.S. then all those silly Japanese selling their Koi for $5K+ must be delusional. Never intended to start a problem here so lets start over.
    Valarc
    I haven't noticed any BS/BH fanatics following this thread. Just a few curios like myself. Your points are all well taken (including JP's sarcastic wit ). The "plants cure everything" sentiment is overrated. They are a nice suppliment in the right setting but definitely not a cure all. As far as sedimentation goes, dtbh's experiment follows the same sedimentation removal protocol as would be used in most systems and I haven't seen anything to indicate the extreme view that the shower will magically make them all disappear. What he has done is construct an empirically sound experiment to measure the effectiveness of his setup as compared to before.

  8. #28
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Carloskoi
    i have a huge TT using 75 milk crates filled with Matala. when i first set it up about a year ago i had a huge string algae growth in the pond. the algae was much less but the first few months i didn't have a great water distribution over the media. about three months ago i made a drip plate with hundreds of holes to distribute the water.

    since then the nitrates have dropped to almost unmeasurable. the water is clearer, there is less sediment, DOC's are much less also.

    i believe there is less sediment as BH proponents claim as more crap is metabolized or is the word mineralized. DOC's have decreased also i believe as a result of mineralization. when first set up there was so much foam for weeks it looked like a major PP treatment. the picture with the foam is two weeks after set up.

    all without BH media.

    Carl
    Did the DOC take care of itself over time or did you take other measures to deal with it? A lot of people I know have used homemade fractionators to get rid of it, but I've always wondered if time alone would allow the right kind of bacteria to populate the system to eat it. BTW, it looks like you put together an excellent TT.

  9. #29
    Jumbo
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    Papabear, I'm not new on this board so I don't need to hang around to get anything ? I think I've been posting here since day 1? I used the name JR but for some reason the new webmaster won't allow me in any more so-- I'm now James P.

    I have no idea how long you have been studying Bakki Showers, but I've been following them since their introduction in Rinko magazine about 6 years ago. At that time, they were used in conjunction with submerged Jmat chambers and also with floating water plants ( for looks as well as function). After seeing them for so long I finally decided to get on a plane and go over and look for myself. It was a very interesting visit to say the least.
    I don't know what you mean when you say "all those Japanese selling $5K koi----" could you explain that remark? JR

  10. #30
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear
    I haven't noticed any BS/BH fanatics following this thread.
    They are there, trust me - usually by this point the ones with a commercial interest start to chime in about magic rays. I am very new to koi, but have been arguing with the pseudoscientists selling BHM since day one.
    As far as sedimentation goes, dtbh's experiment follows the same sedimentation removal protocol as would be used in most systems and I haven't seen anything to indicate the extreme view that the shower will magically make them all disappear.
    I notice by your low post count that you might be new here - you're probably lucky in that you have most likely missed a couple of VERY long threads on several boards, filled with lots of personal attacks, and lots of people who think they know science and have not a clue - all on the subject of bacteria house media. There are quite a few folks who advocate using a bakki shower as the ONLY filtration, whatsoever, anywhere in a pond. They claim you can pump from the bottom drain directly to the shower, and return to the pond - no form of solids removal at all, and have perfect water quality and fish that not only never die, but grant wishes and can fly. Ok maybe not the last parts, but those are just as much fantasy as the concept of solids "somehow" disappearing.

    The real secret, as has been revealed in many cases, is that the design where only bakki showers are used includes one other key element - continuous water flow-through. That is, those solids that are pulverized into tiny bits by the bakki shower, get washed away with a constant 24/7 water change. Of course the zealots never acknowledge this point either, and claim the bakki shower is doing something mystical to the solids.

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