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Thread: Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

  1. #41
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear
    Simply a statement of fact that I've seen Bakki Showers in a number of pictures from prominent Japanese breeders of high quality Koi.
    Do you happen to have a list of names? The only Japanese breeder I've seen referenced as using bakki showers is momotaro - and that shouldn't come as a surprise, as they're the ones who sell the media! The only other breeder, japan or elsewhere, I've seen say they are using bakki showers was Maurice, who is in the UK. From the pics I've seen, he produces some nice koi and has an impressive setup - but I don't think the overpriced clay turds can take credit for that.

  2. #42
    Sansai
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    The guys I have listened to recently who breed water plants are thinking differently now than ten years ago. They maintain that plants survive better at a certain nitrate and nitrite level, so they naturally keep the water at a level they like, depending on the plant. One way that happens is part of the plant or it's roots dies, and it sits in the water rotting, making food for the living part of the plant. So I personally am not a big fan of hydroponic filtration ponds. I think they keep nitrate and nitrite higher than I would want them for koi. Some decorative plants in a tasteful and limited fashion are cool. I do not know all the science behind it, but that is what they have been saying.

    I have been trying to get rid of the plants but the missus says the kois will have to go with the plants....no compromise here. If that is the source of the nitrates at a certain level, won't the shower reduce it even a wee bit?


    The fact that nitrate has not dropped at all tells me we have another issue or perhaps issues to resolve.

    You have mentioned some and I will definitely look into them. One obvious way is to remove the plants temporarily.


    If he has something there keeping the nitrate level up, no filtration can fix it, unless it is oversized. Testing BH that way, or any filter that way appears bogus. It may change in time as the filter matures, but if he has a nitrate factory there, it probably won't have much effect. Just the shower should have reduced the nitrate. The fact it has not tells me nitrate is being injected into the system somehow, if the shower is properly sized. He is also feeding 9x daily, how much, at what intervals, and how much of that is not being eaten is another issue I would look at.

    I think a filter that is 150% the size of the pond should be adequate. I feed every 2 hours. Take it from me that no pellets is left uneaten.

    I understand the point about not changing anything. But reality is, this system is not in a condtion to test any filter or media. BH may miraculously pull it back from over the edge, and as a seller of it I would love to see that happen. I waited until the 3 week seeding time to post to see what would happen. However, right now, it would appear as if the emperor has no clothes. Using findings on a system with these obvious problems to discredit a media is, shall we say, rather unethical and kind of wimpy???

    Never my intention to discredir anything/anyone. Too expensive won't you agree? I will let whoever is reading this thread to make their own judgement. Meanwhile at my end I will do what I can to make this fun experiment as credible as possible.


    Thanks junglegeorge12 for the constructive criticisms.

  3. #43
    Oyagoi
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    Funny you would bring up Maurice. He actually says the BH is a big part of what makes his breedery a success. But since he has only been doing this for 30 years and been to Japan to learn how, he must be wrong- right? And you who have kept koi for three or four whole months in a tiny pond know better right?

    Are you the antibakki spirit or something? Like a koi version of the antichrist? Just against it period. No matter what. Regardless of facts and real history. Even if a profession breeder says it is what makes his farm great, he must be wrong??? Is there a pill that can make that go away? Maybe if you talk badly enough about it it will stop working, is that the idea?

    You have to realize in japan is not all this hostility and competition we have in our culture val. The breeders there share everything to help each other and enhance the atmosphere of the hobby and industry. I have heard of four or five breeders using it and more who said they want to try it out. They want to work together for global impact. Not just make EA a trusted name and all others suspect. They are not interested in the silly 'prove it to my small western mind' game. That was a joke.

    Besides, they need it to make the saki taste good and have to do something with it the morning after. Might as well use it in the pond.

  4. #44
    Oyagoi
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    I know you are not out to slam BH dtbh. You are looking for and answer and sharing here. I think this is great thread.

    From what I gathered from the comments from the plant breeders this is what will happen. The BH starts working. It starts to get rid of the nitrate. The plants sense the dangers of not having their food, and start killing themselves in tiny increments until the level is back up. In fact they overcompensate so they can grow more plant mass to die later to be able to maintain. So now you have plants growing just to die just to overcome the effect of the BH getting rid of nitrate. Apparently they say the plants are capable of that.

    So you install a huge bakki, oversized, and it still has no effect and are left scratching your head goin' what is wrong with my bakki? Everyone else's is working they say? Are they lying? Am I a bad pond keeper? I spent all this dang money and nuthin' happened and the wife is really ticked off now!
    You have two quite large plant ponds. Maybe with some humble and loving communication the wife would work out a compromise. I would sugggest seperating the systems, keep her two plant ponds on the condition you can make a second koi pond eventually. Use a small portion of your old filters and your massive new bakki on your koi ponds. Homemake a seive for now if you need more fines removal just to keep the wife calm. Use the remaining filters and pumps on her plant ponds. Win win. Then you could even load her filters up with new plants too. So she gets more plants. So you end the conversation by asking her when she wants to go get more pond plants and which ones she would like to try. Ask her to give you a list so you can keep an eye out for them. If that does not work go to a marraige counselor. Just kidding!!!

  5. #45
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Valarc
    Do you happen to have a list of names? The only Japanese breeder I've seen referenced as using bakki showers is momotaro - and that shouldn't come as a surprise, as they're the ones who sell the media! The only other breeder, japan or elsewhere, I've seen say they are using bakki showers was Maurice, who is in the UK. From the pics I've seen, he produces some nice koi and has an impressive setup - but I don't think the overpriced clay turds can take credit for that.
    Sorry, no list handy (I wasn't taking notes on specifics, just casual observation). Momo is obviously the first that comes to mind as you say, but as I understand it they also top-dress their own BH with plants which tends to give one the impression that they are supplimenting the denitrification process with veggie .

    My own purely speculative observation would be that the shower sections provide aeration and bacterial action for Ammonia and Nitrite removal with the final stage of Nitrate removal taking place in the submerged BH. IMHO the results would quite likely be the same whether using pricey "clay turds" or lava rock. Of course as I already said, that is pure speculation on my part which this little experiment of dtbh's may help to clarify.

    My own experience demonstrates that aerobic bacteria will live in virtually any type of clay or rock and good aeration and sufficient media is all it ever takes to reduce nitrate to zero.

    Case in point. Potable water and Waste water management is my fathers profession since before I was born (nearly 50 years ago), so I not only grew up with it, I have a ready resource for expert information. With a simple air induction system in clay lined ponds and no media other than that clay he reduces nitrate in raw sewage to zero in 3 days using nothing more than an air induction nozzle on 6 ponds holding 250,000 gal each. The bacteria live in the clay mud and the water. None too glamorous, but wonderfully simple and effective.

  6. #46
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    I saw a piece of BH media once, but have never owned one.

    James, your observations make me want to stick with my un-proven, un-tested theory about how the BS system works. I think that the high flow pounding on the media and abundant aeration simply does a good job of turning particulate organic matter (POM) into dissolved organic matter (DOM). DOM is sort of like DOC, except it includes the other nutrients - notably nitrogenous species. The DOM is removed from the system via the required water exchange. I don't recall the number, but they call for a fairly high water exchange rate.

    So, the difference in a BS system and a more "conventional" koi reactor is that "conventional" systems seek to accumulate POM where it can be removed in a concentrated form. Examples include dumping the sludge from the bottom of a vortex, backflushing a bead filter or static Kaldness, etc. BS systems, on the other hand, seek to convert POM to DOM and remove it in a dilute form with the water exchange.

    Maybe there is a tree-hugger streak in me, but I like to see filtration systems evolve towards technology which uses less water (for exchange) and less energy input. In this respect, BS systems are a step backward. I do not argue with reports that they work really well, but they seem to require more pumping energy (for the high flow and elevated head) and more water exchange.

    -steve h opkins

    P.S. What goes into the pond must come back out of the pond.

  7. #47
    Tosai
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    nitrate level

    dtbh,

    12.5 mg/100 ml works out to be 125 ppm of nitrate. This looks like a strange nitrate level with over size filter and 10% daily water change. And 9 mid-size koi in 18 ton pond. Could the measurement be inaccurate ?

  8. #48
    Sansai
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    Narrowing down the cause of the nitrates

    Quote Originally Posted by frankchong
    dtbh,

    12.5 mg/100 ml works out to be 125 ppm of nitrate. This looks like a strange nitrate level with over size filter and 10% daily water change. And 9 mid-size koi in 18 ton pond. Could the measurement be inaccurate ?
    Did a nitrate check on source water. Horrors of horrors it also registered 12.mg/100ml!! Set me wondering if the reagents are the culprits cos at 125ppm I would expect some effect on my kois' skin quality. Take it from me that they are presently great.

    Next thing is to get a new test kit (must admit that the kit I am using has been with me for some time). Please ignore my comments on my nitrates until I get it sorted out.

    Attached are 2 photos the firtst is to demonstarte the water clarity I have all along...before and after the BS/BH. The koi you see in the middle near the uniring aeration is at 5 ft depth. The 2nd is the BS/BH in my above-ground concrete filter. The 4th tray is inside the filter.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.-water-clarity.jpg   Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.-bakki-shower.jpg  

  9. #49
    Sansai
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    Sakai Fish Farm of Hiroshima use a modified version of the Bakki Shower with bioballs as the filter media in their new greenhouse.

  10. #50
    Jumbo
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    "James, your observations make me want to stick with my un-proven, un-tested theory about how the BS system works. I think that the high flow pounding on the media and abundant aeration simply does a good job of turning particulate organic matter (POM) into dissolved organic matter (DOM). DOM is sort of like DOC, except it includes the other nutrients - notably nitrogenous species. The DOM is removed from the system via the required water exchange. I don't recall the number, but they call for a fairly high water exchange rate.

    So, the difference in a BS system and a more "conventional" koi reactor is that "conventional" systems seek to accumulate POM where it can be removed in a concentrated form. Examples include dumping the sludge from the bottom of a vortex, back flushing a bead filter or static Kaldness, etc. BS systems, on the other hand, seek to convert POM to DOM and remove it in a dilute form with the water exchange." - Steve Hopkins

    Steve, that is 'about' exactly the way I see it at this point after, and I'm not kidding, 8 different applications to isolate waste, reduce aeration, increase/decrease flow and run hybrid systems. I think you saw the test where I immersed the BH in green dye? The test where matured BH is placed in dye has not been posted yet- it shows that penetration of water is very limited after full biofilm formation. I'm thinking this is why Maeda is changing the sharp and porosity of the newer media? That, and to get better flow characteristics.

    Steve, when I talk to you I know you know filters. I can tell by the body of information you draw on to make conclusions and points. The concept of trickle filtration is very common among the Japanese breeders. They ALL use some form of crate or basket filled with oyster shells on the holding ponds when they bring the koi in from the mud ponds. I could post a score of pictures for those interested. Maeda gets credit for refining the design and improving the media. After using BH for 5 months now, I am of the opinion that is an excellent media and superior to lava rock. It is more reliable than plastic although I prefer plastic from a true trickle tower/degasser ( pure surface area and better flow coverage). As a media for a wet/dry biofilter design, it is excellent. But TO BE excellent, the media requires huge water volume cascading so that it does not channel water flows to only certain fixed paths as water chooses routes of least resistance and bends to the will of gravity. In this regard, the entire degassing and ‘pulverizing’ process is accelerated by massive flow.

    I have not done an experiment yet where there is no water change. This will, over time demonstrate a lot I think? This last test I did, reduced aeration and exposure to the atmosphere but kept flow rates and normal nitrification rates the same or similar. Yet the system obviously failed . The addition of the oceanic, below the tank, created a new, albeit, conventional wet/dry trickle system then did re-fractionation and the foam was heavy enough to shave with! I don’t think I ‘treed’ anything here- but the ‘hounds’ are definitely on the scent!

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