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Thread: Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

  1. #1
    Sansai
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    167

    Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

    I have started to do an experiment to compare the benefits, if any, between a Bakki Shower/Bacteria House (BS/BH)(250kg BH equivalent to about 150% requirement at a recommended amount of 10kg/ton) filtration system versus my large conventional submerged filtration system (150% of pond surface area).

    Allow me to describe my filtration system so that we can have a good idea how I plan to do the comparison. Attached is a diagrammatic not-to-scale plan of my pond. As you can see I have 2 gravity-feed filters, one of which is feeding the 2 above-ground filters, and 2 hydroponics ponds. My filter materials consist of brushes, Japanese mats, matala and Izeki nets. In terms of tonnage, my main pond is 18 tons while my filters have a total of 24 tons. I siphon my sedimentation chambers and change 10% water daily. I have 3 pumps running with a total flow-rate of about 40 ton/hr, and 4 Hi-blows to provide aeration (2x100W and 2x80W). I generally tend not to overstock my pond. I have just "culled" my kois in preparation for my kois coming back from Japan. At present I have 9 kois (one Sakai kohaku (56cm), one 65cm Ogata shiro utsuri, one 66cm Momotaro sanke, two Dainichi showas (43 and 51cm), and four homebred 13 month-old kohakus (about 50cms). This system has served me well for about 5 years now. Water quality has always been good with crystal clear water, kois with excellent appetite and good growth rate (I feed 9x/day with a total of 600gm of pellets and silkworm pupae).

    What do I hope to achieve from this experiment? Well, besides satisfying my curiosity and my never-ending tinkering of my filters (how else do you think my filter has reached this size? Drives my wife crazy! LOL), I would like to know how and what else BS/BH can offer me. I must add here that I am a hobbyist and has no vested interest and with noone to please but myself. I will post everything I find. Period.

    I will categorise the parameters I will be monitoring into 2 big groups i.e. subjective and objective parameters. The subjective parameters I will be monitoring include:

    1. Change in appetite
    2. Growth rate
    3. Water clarity
    4. System’s response to challenges e.g. thunderstorms, heavy feeding etc
    Eventhough I have indicated these are really very subjective parameters I am very in-tune with my present system and I will know if there are any extraordinary changes.

    The objective parameters that I will be monitoring are:

    1. pH
    2. TDS
    3. ORP
    4. Nitrate
    5. GH
    I have converted one of my above-ground filters (the one right next to the main pond) to house my Bakki Shower. The filter materials have been shifted to the other filters. I have measured the objective parameters over the past few weeks prior to setting up of the Bakki Shower to get an indicative range of objective parameters. Below are the average readings prior to setting up of the BS/BH system:

    1. *pH 7-7.5
    2. *ORP 320 (dropped to 200 after I redistributed the filter material)
    3. *TDS 80-85 (dropped to 60 after I did the redistribution…I wonder why)
    4. Nitrate 12.5mg/100ml
    5. GH 3 dGH
    6. Temperature
    *meters calibrated weekly

    I added the BH on the 6th of October. I added a Tsurumi pump (15ton/hr) to increase the flow-rate to my BS/BH system (see diagram). My plan is to gradually bypass my existing filters so that the BS/BH will eventually take over full responsibility. I know this experiment will take a long time. So sit back and join me as I go along.

    I have been monitoring the parameters since then. Before I post the findings it will be fun if any of you are keen to guess what will happen to my water/kois. Please feel free to give your comments. For those who are in/going to Japan maybe we can meet, as I will be going to Hiroshima/Niigata next weekend.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.-existing-system.jpg   Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.-bs-bh.jpg  

  2. #2
    Jumbo
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    between Okeefenokee and Ichetucknee
    Posts
    750
    This is what I miss about koi.com.my. Thank you for all you have shown me and allowed me to learn, about koi keeping and otherwise.

    My use of BH has been a pleasant experience though I have nothing near enough of the media to support a whole pond. And of course all of my results are subjective without science to back them up. I use it as my mobile media, moving it whenever I start a new system.

    Good luck with your planned changes.

    Mickey the windowman

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Wonderful. I've been asked several times whether the Bakki Shower has improved my pond. I really cannot say because everything is new and I use several types of filtration. I cannot make a comparison. This comparison will be of great interest, especially to those in warm climates.

  4. #4
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    89

    DOC's?

    might want to add to the test checking for Dissolved organic carbon. That was one of the main points of debate on other threads, that in a closed environment the BH was unable to remove DOC's any better then any other system.

  5. #5
    Sansai
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    167
    dtbh, are you keeping a daily recorded reading of the overall parameter of your pond? i.e since you started on 9th October '05.

    I added the BH on Oct 6th. Roger, thanks for lending me your ORP and TDS/pH/Temp Combo meters. Yes, I am monitoring daily.


    Questions:
    1) How long do you plan to keep both running before you finally bypass all your existing filters?

    Until I am satisfied seeding has occurred with the BS/BH system. There is no time frame for this experiment


    2) Since you have started loading BS/BH from 9th October '05, what are the differences you observed or recorded on the overall parameter of your pond?

    To be frank, after about 2 weeks now there is no significant changes other than a 0.5-0.8 degC drop in water temp.


    3) If your initial submerged, hydroponic, conventional filtration system is 150% of pond surface size; and with an additional of 250kg of BH (which gives you an additional 150% filtration requirment); and at this moment both are running concurrently... what are the overall parameter reading like?

    As above


    4) You recorded a drop in reading on your TDS & ORP. Was it due to an improvement in your replacement of filtration media or was it due to other factors, like 'cooler' water temperature due to the in season rainning or was it due to the 'works' of your Bakki Shower with/without the initial placing of BH.
    If additional works of turnover of pond water (by having additional pumps installed and running) contributes to this drop in reading, it serve us well to know that we need more turn-around of pond water inorder to keep it good and keep the ORP & TDS low. Please comment.

    The drop in ORP and TDS was noted before the Bakki Shower was added. It happened after I redistributed the filter material from the above-ground filter. In fact I did some readings for a week with the BS alone....no change.


    5) Nitrate 12.5mg/100ml. dtbh, please explain why are you still getting a nitrate reading of 12.5mg/100ml (I don't understand), when you are running both conventional, submerged and hydroponic and the BH/BS with only 9 koi in an 18 ton pond. Shouldn't the reading be both '0' for nitrite and nitrate? Please comment.

    I don't know 12.5mg/100ml is equivalent to how much in ppm. Nitrate is an end-product of the biofilter and is not toxic to fish at levels lower than 20ppm. Nitrates is not removed by conventional submerged filters but can be degassed by trickle filters and wet/dry filters. I have been having this level for ages (zero nitrites as well). This is one of the reasons why I am trying BS/BH. Incidentally I am using the test kit by Tetra.


    6) Your total turnaround/flowrate is give/take 55ton/hr in an 18 ton pond which is 3 rounds/hr x 24 hrs - you are doing 72 times turnaround of your pond water! Why are you still doing a daily 10% water change and siphoning? Don't you think the pond water are doing a proper self-maintainence? Please comment. Will it makes a different if you have an over flow with, say,takes away 5% of the daily pond water? Please comment.

    So that I can have a fair comparison between the 2 systems. Up to now I still see a fair bit of sedimentation in my 1st chamber. Hence still siphoning. I read that you have hardly any sedimentation in yours. Strange how similar filter systems react differently in different ponds, isn't it?


    Hi Mike, I have read so much about the BS/BH system but noone has presented any comparison...not that I expect anyone to. As I have mentioned this is more for fun which makes this hobby so interesting. If I can in the process help anyone to make informed decisions on filter design it makes this excercise all the more rewarding.

    Hi Surfhead Ned, I am measuring the DO. Pardon my ignorance, what do I use to measure the DOC? Thanks.

  6. #6
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    53

    Wink

    There is no such thing as dissolved organic carbon or DOC. I think it is simply a joke.

    Sam


    Quote Originally Posted by dtbh
    dtbh, are you keeping a daily recorded reading of the overall parameter of your pond? i.e since you started on 9th October '05.

    I added the BH on Oct 6th. Roger, thanks for lending me your ORP and TDS/pH/Temp Combo meters. Yes, I am monitoring daily.


    Questions:
    1) How long do you plan to keep both running before you finally bypass all your existing filters?

    Until I am satisfied seeding has occurred with the BS/BH system. There is no time frame for this experiment


    2) Since you have started loading BS/BH from 9th October '05, what are the differences you observed or recorded on the overall parameter of your pond?

    To be frank, after about 2 weeks now there is no significant changes other than a 0.5-0.8 degC drop in water temp.


    3) If your initial submerged, hydroponic, conventional filtration system is 150% of pond surface size; and with an additional of 250kg of BH (which gives you an additional 150% filtration requirment); and at this moment both are running concurrently... what are the overall parameter reading like?

    As above


    4) You recorded a drop in reading on your TDS & ORP. Was it due to an improvement in your replacement of filtration media or was it due to other factors, like 'cooler' water temperature due to the in season rainning or was it due to the 'works' of your Bakki Shower with/without the initial placing of BH.
    If additional works of turnover of pond water (by having additional pumps installed and running) contributes to this drop in reading, it serve us well to know that we need more turn-around of pond water inorder to keep it good and keep the ORP & TDS low. Please comment.

    The drop in ORP and TDS was noted before the Bakki Shower was added. It happened after I redistributed the filter material from the above-ground filter. In fact I did some readings for a week with the BS alone....no change.


    5) Nitrate 12.5mg/100ml. dtbh, please explain why are you still getting a nitrate reading of 12.5mg/100ml (I don't understand), when you are running both conventional, submerged and hydroponic and the BH/BS with only 9 koi in an 18 ton pond. Shouldn't the reading be both '0' for nitrite and nitrate? Please comment.

    I don't know 12.5mg/100ml is equivalent to how much in ppm. Nitrate is an end-product of the biofilter and is not toxic to fish at levels lower than 20ppm. Nitrates is not removed by conventional submerged filters but can be degassed by trickle filters and wet/dry filters. I have been having this level for ages (zero nitrites as well). This is one of the reasons why I am trying BS/BH. Incidentally I am using the test kit by Tetra.


    6) Your total turnaround/flowrate is give/take 55ton/hr in an 18 ton pond which is 3 rounds/hr x 24 hrs - you are doing 72 times turnaround of your pond water! Why are you still doing a daily 10% water change and siphoning? Don't you think the pond water are doing a proper self-maintainence? Please comment. Will it makes a different if you have an over flow with, say,takes away 5% of the daily pond water? Please comment.

    So that I can have a fair comparison between the 2 systems. Up to now I still see a fair bit of sedimentation in my 1st chamber. Hence still siphoning. I read that you have hardly any sedimentation in yours. Strange how similar filter systems react differently in different ponds, isn't it?


    Hi Mike, I have read so much about the BS/BH system but noone has presented any comparison...not that I expect anyone to. As I have mentioned this is more for fun which makes this hobby so interesting. If I can in the process help anyone to make informed decisions on filter design it makes this excercise all the more rewarding.

    Hi Surfhead Ned, I am measuring the DO. Pardon my ignorance, what do I use to measure the DOC? Thanks.

  7. #7
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    89

    quote from JR

    I'm not an expert, I am just reststing what I have read posted by others smarter then I.

    quote from JR

    "I would suggest that surface appearance would be different depending on ‘species’ of DOC that was dominate? DOCs can be protein based, carbohydrate based or lipid based. Fish food byproducts ( either passed through the fish or broken down by bacteria), fish slime, algae contents all make up a mix or chains of molecules. But when visible to the naked eye, we are usually looking at POCs on the water surface. Since DOCs are by definition ‘dissolved’ they are not usually visible until this foaming action is encouraged. I have seen ponds with really poor circulation and over crowded conditions that actually form slicks of lipids combined with particulate matter floating on the surface. And many of us are familiar with the yellow stain in water rich in protein and natural dyes produced by algal and bacterial action. If the water foams you have the combination but if it is yellow and doesn’t foam you are looking at organic dyes.
    This brings us back to the idea that pond water- water in a closed system- is in a constant state of deterioration. Desirable things are being lost and undesirable things are being built up. The only reliable intervention for long term insurance is a water change. In between, sump flushing, moderate feeding matched to the limitations of a given pond, foam fractionation, carbon or resin use, clay etc. will help keep the water ‘sweet’.
    The mystery of bakki shower marketing is – where does this DOC and POC go? If the answer is it is in circulation and removed by constant water change then fine! We should be able to measure that. Bacteria count will reveal some of the answer. Foam fractionation study should provide more evidence. I’m using a POWERED Euro foam fractionator at some point to measure foam content. An expensive unit at $2000 but a super performer."
    Hello! My name is Endigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!

  8. #8
    Sansai
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    167
    Day 20

    Finally I see some changes...the ORP has climbed back to 250 (my usual reading).

    TDS,pH and nitrates still the same.

    I note the BS/BH has done nothing to my DO (yet?) which I have expected.

    Yet to note any extraordinary change in water physical appearance (same crystal clarity), koi appetite or skin lustre.

    Still significant sedimentation in 1st chamber. I don't think this will ever stop.

    dtbh

  9. #9
    Sansai
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    167

    1 month of Bakki Shower/Bact House - Update

    It has been exactly one month since I set up this system. Was away in Japan last week.

    No new changes was noted esp the parameters I expected to improve ie nitrates still at 12.5mg/100ml and significant sedimentation.

    Will these ever improve????? We will see.

    dtbh

  10. #10
    Sansai
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    260
    WHAT? You mean to tell me the vaulted bakki shower is collecting junk in the tray? Oh woe is me, the magical poop-vanishing properties were a sham

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