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Thread: KHV Testing & Certificates in Niigata

  1. #11
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koi Story
    .......

    You can't even prove that you are not somebody else, you can only prove who you are.....

    ks
    You got a point there.

    Anyway !! Koistory, seems like you can be a very good lawyer;-))
    But sometime, lawyers use "insanity" to defend their cases which
    argue that you don't even know who you are or you can't prove who you are during that "insanity" period. ;-))

    --Dinh

  2. #12
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    HI Steve,
    Many unknown and difficult questions about KHV. There are currently two major types of tests. PCR tests for KHV virus DNA but can only detect in fairly high amounts when disease is active and koi is sick/dying. ELISA tests for KHV antibodies which appear in KHV survivors about 7-14 days post infection. There are many different types of koi situations possible with KHV some of these are:

    Naive Koi (never exposed)PCR test negative/Elisa test negative
    Exposed Koi
    • Naturally immune will not get KHV (could become a carrier)PCR negative/ELisa Negative
    • infected and awaiting optimal temperture/conditions to develop KHV PCR Negative/Elisa test negative
    • infected and has developed KHV disease (majority will die) PCR test positive/Elisa test negative
    • infected but will survive (could become carrier) +PCR test/-Elisa test
    KHV Survivors
    • Infected with KHV but survived (could become carrier)PCR negative/Elisa Test positive
    Placing all new koi in a strict quarantine at 72-78F for 3-4 weeks and adding a "canary" koi to test for carriers able to pass on KHV infection is the only way to currently protect your koi collection. Can anyone prove that this is 100% perfect guarantee to keep KHV out of your ponds, No! But, experts do agree that following a strict quarantine with perfect biosecurity at optimal temperture and adding a "canary" koi then it would be very very very unlikely to not discover KHV infected koi during proper quarantine.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    Thank you Ray. That helps a lot. Do you know (or have an opinion about) whether an infected fish, which has not been through the 72-78F window, can pass the virus to a naive fish?

    In light of the information above, the Japanese certification program sounds pretty superficial. I do not mean this to be derogatory and am sure they are doing the best they can with the tools they have available. However, if a PCR test is only of use during an active outbreak (clinically symptomatic koi), then routine testing is sort of like looking for a needle in a haystack. Right? It seems like you are more likely to discover a problem when the fish bioassey themselves (start dying).

    I am assuming that the two-step PCR is not yet available and we are talking about single-step PCR here. Is that correct? Any word on when/if a two-step PCR will be available?

    I think it generally costs about $25 to run each sample in PCR testing. Does anyone know who pays for the testing in Japan - the breeder or the government? Does the testing have to be done in the 72-78F window in order to get the certificate? Obviously, they do not test every fish. What is the sampling protocol?

    Lots of questions. Sometimes I cannot adequately suppress Chicken Little.

    -steve hopkins

  4. #14
    Oyagoi
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    Step in the right direc tion, but...

    An exposed fish or survivor can be detected in some cases as far as four months post exposure. After that it can still be an asymptomatic carrier that tests negative.

    If a facility is tested repeatedly each month for a complete cycle (one year) then you might be able to make some kind of statement about it being unlikely to be infected as long as no new fish or unsterilized water has entered the facility. Still, birds, frogs, turtles, etc. can carriy contaminated water, fish eggs, and even fish from infected rivers, infected farms, infected hobby ponds, etc. back to the koi production facility.

    Everybody had best go and copy down Ray's post, memorize it and take it straight to heart.
    Brett

  5. #15
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,
    As you have noticed as more questions are asked about KHV they lead to even more questions about KHV.

    What I consider positive news is I am told that the larger more sucessful breeders are coming to understand the necessity to isolate their operations completely. They are learning about the optimum temperture range of KHV and need to hold koi in that range for several weeks as the best/only way to test for KHV. The old practices of buying new parent koi, select koi from smaller breeders to resell, exchanging koi or taking customer koi to return to mud ponds, or even selling koi just returned from fall harvest without extensive quarantine proceedures must end. No more sharing of seine nets between breeders or even between ponds without disinfection. IN the future fall buying trips will drop off and Winter/Spring buying will become more common. It might take a few more breeder wipe outs from KHV but stricker biosecurity and holding koi at right temps to observe and test must happen.

    I would expect/hope to see breeders offer disinfected rubber boots to wear into their koi houses. Also hand disinfectant if you want to touch anything.

    Smaller less sucessful breeders cannot afford to heat their koi houses (if they have one) to optimum KHV tempertures and these other biosecurity measures.. I am concerned and sad that smaller breeders will likely disapear and we will be left with fewer breeders mostly in large operations. These guys are often the ones that are creating new types of koi and innovations.

    I have been told that many of the Japanese hobbyists are just not buying any new koi this fall becase of KHV concerns. The Japanese market has dropped way off and breeders are needing/hoping to sell more koi overseas. Market conditions will force the changes necessary to stop KHV or at least make it a rare isolated occurance.

    I hope this sounds positive vs chicken little. Because I am positive that now that KHV has arrived it will be managed as many other diseases are managed. More and more research is happening and new tests and other tools will be developed to insure a koi industry/hobby remain viable.

    I also want to give recognition and special thanks to Brian, Dinh, and many on this board for their support of AKCA-Project KHV.

  6. #16
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    Again, great food for thought Ray.

    In other animal industries with intensive health management programs, no one is allowed to visit the farm if they have been on another farm in the past 24 (and sometimes up to 72) hours. These pictorial accounts we see here of people going from one farm to another to look at and buy koi would give a poultry farmer chills.

    When farms growing poultry, swine, shrimp etc. started instituting biosecurity programs, they ran into the same problems Brett mentions. Birds and other wildlife were bringing disease onto the farm and in some cases the water source was also the disease source. The ramifications of this can completely change how an industry is structured. It pressures the farmer to move away from using large, unprotected outdoor production facilities and into smaller enclosed facilities where there is more control over what comes and goes. When was the last time you saw serious hog farming done in open fields? Now, hogs are farmed at high densities in enclosed "pig palaces". These smaller, protected facilities cost more to build, so the density of animals inside must be higher in order to maintain profitability. However, we all know what happens when you grow animals at higher densities - you get more disease problems. So, it becomes a vicious cycle. This is part of the reason that the chicken in the supermarket is now full of antibiotics and hormones.

    This is also the reason why koi farms in geographically isolated locations like Danbury Texas, Monroe North Carolina, and Somerset England, may realize a competitive advantage over the long run. There is less likelihood that KHV will be in the surrounding environment and will be transported into the farm via wildlife and surface water. Thus, with enough geographical isolation, there is less pressure to move away from the more economical and effective outdoor mud pond and into smaller and more protected facilities.

    -steve hopkins

  7. #17
    Nisai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koi Story
    A statement in the negative form cannot be proved. You can't prove that you are not in a certain place, you can only prove that you are elsewhere.

    From TV, the suspect can't prove that he / she didn't kill the subject, he / she can only have an alibi.

    You can't even prove that you are not somebody else, you can only prove who you are.

    It cannot be proved neither that a fish or a farm hasn't been exposed nor that it isn't infected.

    ks
    I agree. Best way to stop KHV will be to stop buying for a few months and buy very few koi very carefully, if you must. At this point of time, do not buy unless you must have to have a particular koi for whatever reason. Beause KHV may hide in some cells but not all cells in the fish, it will be difficult to verify that a particular fish or farm is KHV-free. Most places like NJ, winter is quickly setting in, it will be best to wait until next summer. I think serious hobbyists like many of us have a serious responsibility in stopping KHV in US. We are not in it for money and we are also the end user. As a result, if we are very very careful in buying we can stop it from spreading in the US.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    Excuse my impertinence butterfly, but I don't think that folks should stop buying koi. As long as you are set up for a heated or a prolonged quarantine and have some canaries, then nothing has changed. You had to be careful because there was some KHV around last year, and there will probably be some KHV around next year. As a koi keeper, you do not risk spreading KHV until most of your fish die, a heron carries away a sick fish, and you are in denial about the cause and status of the survivors.

    What are the ramifications if everyone stopped buying koi for 6-8 months - beginning right now? There is a chance that the incidence of KHV infections in koi ponds would drop by a case or two. That is good. The breeders would have to tighten their belts and make room for koi which would have otherwise been sold. That is bad. The quality of the koi for sale in the spring would have to go down because of overcrowding. That is bad. Would the price of koi go down because of supply and demand, or would the price go up in the spring because the breeder has more operating expense invested in the fish? Don't know.

    -steve hopkins

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