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Thread: Kumonryu Origins

  1. #1
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Kumonryu Origins

    I've been under the impression that Kumonryu is a doitsu Matsukawabake. The October issue of Nichirin suggests otherwise. It was derived from a crossing of a Karasugoi (black koi) and a Shusui, but the Karasugoi is not said to be a Matsukawabake. Rather, it was a Karasugoi that appeared among the offspring of a cross of a doitsu Nezu Ogon and a Shusui. So, the original Kumonryu was three-quarters Shusui. .... Of course, the Sumi changes as in Matsukawabake, and perhaps the Sumi also changed with the seasons on the Karasugoi parent? It seems to me that the Sumi patterning on Matsukawabake usually rises from below the lateral line toward the dorsal, with the abdomen nearly always black... with a white face and a crest of white along the back in its prettiest color phase. The Sumi in Kumonryu, on the other hand, is usually in long flank markings running above the lateral line, like the Hi pattern on the flanks of Shusui. I've not seen enough of either variety to draw a conclusion, but the Nichirin article brought to mind the different appearance of the two goes beyond one having scales and the other not.

    Thoughts? Comments?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I have seen many kumonryu sold at dealers as beni, when all of the red is below
    the lateral line. That's because they are showing their shusui heritage. The best breeder I ever saw of this type is Iizuka ( pronounced Ee-zoo-ka ). The first
    beni kumonryu ever developed were incredible. The red would disappear in the winter to appear in the spring like flower blooms. This ability of the black to come and go tells me that somewhere in the genetics is matsukawabake.....

  3. #3
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Good stuff. In asking the question to multiple breeders which was developed first and led to the other I have to date received a mixed bag of answers. Additionally I have been told they were developed seperately. Would love to know the real scoop and intend to keep asking.

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    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    JR's thoughts (from another parish) . . .

    "The matsukawabaki is a ‘variable’ black and white member of this family. And the change in pattern can occur throughout the seasons and through out its life.

    Today the Kumonryu is a doitsu only version of these fish but really a kumonryu should be a cross originally coming from shusui and matsukawabaki and it should carry sumi along the sides and the rest of the fish should be white. So things have gotten sloppy as any doitsu/ black and white fish from the entire Kara group is often called and entered in shows as kumonryu. No heart burn I guess since they all compete against one another anyway. "

    Don

  5. #5
    Oyagoi
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    Not sure about all the history, I do know a few things and also the results of spawnings.

    The first hi-kumonryu (nowadays called "beni-kumonryu") in the US belonged to a buddy of mine. It came from Atsushi Suda. This was more than a dozen or so years ago.

    In breeding, I have seen the following in the offspring...

    Crossing shusui male to doitsu karasu female yeilds kumonryu as well as matsukawabake (Mendhalian inheritance in scale patterns).

    Hi-kumonryu male to shusui female yeilds hi-kumonryu and red bellied matsukawabake.

    Doitsu kohaku male to karasu female also yeild hi-kumonryu, but a different type of pattern on the hi, more on top of the fish rather than below the lateral line.

    I can go on and on as I pursued this line of breeding for many years and had a lot of "Best in Class, Kawarimono" winners for my customers during that time. I included doitsu kujaku, doitsu sanke, and other kumonryu types as well during this time.

    I lost my karasu female and became a bit disenamored in the pursuit and pretty much went on to other things. I still get requests, though, for that type of fish which I bred several years ago.
    Brett

  6. #6
    Honmei
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    White Matsukawabake

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM
    I've been under the impression that Kumonryu is a doitsu Matsukawabake. The October issue of Nichirin suggests otherwise. It was derived from a crossing of a Karasugoi (black koi) and a Shusui, but the Karasugoi is not said to be a Matsukawabake. Rather, it was a Karasugoi that appeared among the offspring of a cross of a doitsu Nezu Ogon and a Shusui. So, the original Kumonryu was three-quarters Shusui. .... Of course, the Sumi changes as in Matsukawabake, and perhaps the Sumi also changed with the seasons on the Karasugoi parent? It seems to me that the Sumi patterning on Matsukawabake usually rises from below the lateral line toward the dorsal, with the abdomen nearly always black... with a white face and a crest of white along the back in its prettiest color phase. The Sumi in Kumonryu, on the other hand, is usually in long flank markings running above the lateral line, like the Hi pattern on the flanks of Shusui. I've not seen enough of either variety to draw a conclusion, but the Nichirin article brought to mind the different appearance of the two goes beyond one having scales and the other not.

    Thoughts? Comments?
    We picked up a stunning Matsukawabake from Aoki this year. It is almost completely pure white, including its belly. The Sumi has started coming in, but has started from its head to its tail and down the sides. Nothing on its belly.

    Russ

  7. #7
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Genetic Varieties vs Phenotype Varieties

    Brett's comments point to the practice in the koi community of naming a variety based on the outward appearance of the fish rather than the genetic purity of it. A long established line of Kohaku crossed with another of equal lineage will produce young that are red, white and red & white; but it would be a surprise to see a black koi in a million fry. Kohaku have become a gene-based variety. Many other varieties are simply mongrels that possess desirable physical features with every likelihood that if crossed together the fry would be a mixed bag of pond mutts. So, in crossing Shusui with a doitsu black koi, Brett found both Kumonryu and Matsukawabake among the fry ... a doitsu version and a scaled version of the same fish? It would seem so, at least by phenotype. Curious stuff, koi genetics.

    Brett: Did the Sumi behave similarly on the Kumonryu and the Matsukawabake you produced? Or, was it on the flanks in the Kumonryu and rising from abdomen on the Matsukawabake?

  8. #8
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM
    Brett: Did the Sumi behave similarly on the Kumonryu and the Matsukawabake you produced? Or, was it on the flanks in the Kumonryu and rising from abdomen on the Matsukawabake?
    Very good question, makes me really wonder why you ask.

    In some cases the sumi did behave similarily on both types, mostly along the sides.

    In all the kumonryu the sumi was on the sides and sometimes coming onto the back, a shusui type pattern.

    It did a lot more strange things in a few of the matsus. A few had sumi patterns along thier backs, much like kohaku patterns. One of these was on display at the most recent Houston Show. It seemed to raise some interest, I think it got some award or other. I've had a few other of these in that group.

    Some of the matsus had almost black bellies and white backs, the divide at the lateral line. Others were the opposite with white bellies and black or mottled backs.

    I gto no idea why I got these results. Maybe you could shed some light? You must know something I don't or the question wouldn't have up. Tell me, I'm dyin' here.

    Brett

  9. #9
    Jumbo Bern's Avatar
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    I heard a similar story from some of the sons & nephews of a few Mushigame breeders. Their souce was the breeder Matsuda.

    His version of events was originally a cross between Hajiro and Shusui. Hajiro being of Karasu lineage is therefore not too far removed from your info. I'm not sure how far this story went back but they were breeding Hajiro as a fish to compliment Kohaku in the pond. There were always a proportion of Doitsu fish produced. They introduced Shusui to improve the patterns. BTW Orange bellies are common to both Karasus and Asagi/Shusui.

    This practise was commonplace and somebody somewhere eventually discovered the volatile sumi which led to the Kumonryu, in all probability Matsukawbake too. The Matsudas 'improved' Hajiro (Doitsu or Wagoi) never had this volatile sumi trait.

    The early production of these changeable fish seemed to concentrate on the Doitsu version. However, I have seen the odd Matsukawabake in amongst some very small Kumonryu tosai at Kase's on more than one occasion, whether these are worse or better than line bred ones I don't know.

    rgds BERN
    South East Koi Club


  10. #10
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Ah, Brett, I wish I had an "answer". I don't. I've had some ideas about genetic linkages of traits in koi floating around in my mind for some time, but I simply do not have the first hand knowledge/experience to begin to sort it out. ... It begins with Asagi and Shusui.

    I think it too simplistic to refer to Shusui as doitsu versions of Asagi. The Hi on Shusui simply does not behave in the same way... different patterning and, as DickB has pointed out, a tendency in many for Hi to decrease over time, not expand as in Asagi. I assume the differences are tied to the doitsu carp bred into Asagi to create Shusui.

    The "flank" patterning of Hi in Shusui and of Sumi in Kumonryu also appears to me to be derived from some ancestral carp, perhaps the original German carp? This patterning is more generally seen in doitsu fish. (But, sometimes it shows vaguely in Wagoi... a pond mutt Hariwake of mine has had Hi spread laterally on her flanks.)In Asagi the Hi will creep up from below, not too disimilar from the way Sumi will rise and spread from the abdomen in older Utsuri lines (not "tainted" by Sanke genes). The gold/orange bellies of some Karasugoi also seems to me to behave similarly to Asagi's orange bellies, at least on some specimens... I had one a few years back where you could see an orangish tone under/in the Sumi up to about the lateral line. (The belly had been silverish when only a few inches long, and became quite orange by 18", and seemed to spread upward under the Sumi until I got rid of the ugly thing at about 22".)

    In Matsukawabake, the trait that stands out is the phenomenon of Sumi disappearing and reappearing. But, the Sumi patterning is often primarily from the belly to just above the lateral line ...much like the Aka patterning on Asagi.

    You can probably think of other examples of Sumi on one type of koi behaving like the Hi/Aka on another type and vice versa.

    It seems to me that there are genes dictating placement; genes dictating mode of expansion of pigment; and genes dictating doitsu vs wagoi; and genes determining the color of pigment. These have general linkages to one another that together "create" a variety; but sometimes the links become re-arranged. I think it interesting that you do not mention having doitsu Karasugoi in those old batches of fry, but do say all the Kumonryu had lateral flank patterning.... I think of that as defining Kumonryu. But, the Matsukawabake were in every sort of variation. So, was it a lethal combination for Sumi to spread from below on a doitsu fish, or is the link between lateral-flank patterning on doitsu scalation so strong that it is not easily broken? But with the wagoi, the genes determining placement and mode of expansion re-arranged randomly... genetic links were broken?? I'd expect Utsuri-type Sumi behavior in the wagoi to predominate, but not be exclusive.

    Then there is difference in placement and behavior of Utsuri Sumi and Sanke Sumi.... which gets all mixed up in contemporary Showa with a large dose of Sanke genes.... I'm wanting a black and white koi with Sumi that is positioned and behaves like the Hi of Kohaku, with the lacquer of Sanke-Sumi. I can imagine the fish (and JR posted a pic once of a koi that came close). And, I can imagine a koi that is red and white with the Hi behaving like Utsuri-Sumi, with the pigment being the red of Kohaku... imagine brilliant red menware slicing across the face with Motobeni pectorals? LOL

    Well, enough. I could ramble on a lot more, but I expect most everyone is bored by this and must think I'm more than a little nuts to think about this stuff with no practical application. If I ever make sense of it, I'll surprise myself.

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