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Thread: What variety is this!!

  1. #11
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    and the "punch line" is . . .

    (drumroll . . . . .)

  2. #12
    Jumbo Regenmeneer's Avatar
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    Well, what did Aoki say it is...............

  3. #13
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    We used to call girls a p%[email protected] tease when they held out this way

  4. #14
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    I have seen it in person and I would say something, but I'll let Koiczar tell you what it is...

  5. #15
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    OKAY,OKAY,OKAY!!

    Koicop, you win the prize. I asked Aoki if it was a Gin Beni Matsukawabaki, he non-chalantly nodded his head, paused, then looked at me in disbelief. He then said, "hi, you know"? I said, I guessed. He said, "you are correct". It was not an expensive fish obviously, but one of those that you just have to have as a conversation piece. The picture doesn't do it justice, due to poor lighting, but the hikari on this fish is extremely strong. The netting pattern is also darker black in person, making the gin even more pronounced. I just wanted it because it would be something not a lot of people have or have even seen before. Looks like I succeeded!!

    Thank you all for playing, it was fun.

    Have a great Holiday Season. Hope all your koi dreams come true!!

    Mike

  6. #16
    Jumbo
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    Mike, with ALL due respect to the breeder, you and your eye-- no frigg'en way is there such a thing as a gin beni matsukawabake. Fundamentally, matsukawabake is a kawari of the karasugoi. ANY matsukawabake is black and white ( although I have seen red and white ) but they are not THREE colors. They are two colored fish. The more we give names to 'in-between' fish, the more we move away from breeds as fixed and identifiable. Its great that some breeders experiment with crosses in an effort to find new varieties. But in any outcross of varieties you get weird stuff along with the look you want. This is what culling is for. I'm a big Dr. Kuroki fan. The guy was a renaissance man and had a gift for seeing the ‘blend’ behind a koi’s phenotype. But when he would string together a three adjective definition of a mutt it was hard to defend sometimes. Some times a cigar is just a cigar. It was fun though to see this fish and play ‘Kuroki for a day’. Thanks. JR

  7. #17
    Nisai
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    Looks like a low quality kujaku to mee too, no matter what it genetically is. sSill better than nearly all that I have though.

  8. #18
    Jumbo
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    Right Dan. This fish would be benched by 99% of benching teams as kujaku ( moyo) and the remaining 1% would be tempted towards kawari.

    In truth, other than a collector point of view, if a koi looks like a variety there is not much interest beyond that. I think it is very common to find two fish that look exactly alike but their phenotype was derived from different genetic mixes- case in point- a doitsu kujaku and a hariwake doitsu. Very close but very different genetic make up. This stuff would only matter if your intension was to breed the koi as the outcomes would be quite different!

    The key to understanding the evolution of these karasu goi breeds is to appreciate that the fundamental goi was karasu ( crow or black) goi. This developed into hajiro and hageshiro and finally into the kumonryu complex. All of this is the progressive spreading of the white gene.

    Kumonryu and matsukawabake are closely related. It would be an over simplification to say that kumonryu is the doitsu version and matsukawabake is the wagoi ( scaled ) version. But it would not be too wrong! One similarity that shows the link of common ancestry is the ability for some individuals of both types to change pattern based on water temperature and age. Normally the beni gene carried by kumonryu from the original cross of karsugoi and doitsu is suppressed. But in the next cross- to create kikokuryu, namely a platinum X kumonryu, the shusui gene evidence reveals itself quite often! Now add to the mix, the use of doitsu kohaku X kumonryu and you have a classier beni in the better beni kumonryu! But can you get kujaku from all this? Not hardly. Can you get a fish that mimics the look of kujaku. I’m sure the answer is yes!

  9. #19
    Honmei keokoi's Avatar
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    My guess is Chuppa! LOL

    Anyhow that is a weird looking fish. I kept on wanting to say Beni Gin Matsuba ( too much to drink) but something wasnt right as the head really was telling me kiko... Anyow interesting fish.. Not one I would look at but I am sure it stood out in Aoki's greenhouse.

    Thanks Mike for the Game..

    Joe

  10. #20
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    The thrill of victory . . . the agony of defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by koiczar
    OKAY,OKAY,OKAY!!
    Quote Originally Posted by koiczar

    Koicop, you win the prize. I asked Aoki if it was a Gin Beni Matsukawabaki, he non-chalantly nodded his head, paused, then looked at me in disbelief. He then said, "hi, you know"? I said, I guessed. He said, "you are correct".

    Mike


    Yeah! What’s the prize?

    Quote Originally Posted by James P
    Mike, with
    Quote Originally Posted by James P
    ALL due respect to the breeder, you and your eye-- no frigg'en way is there such a thing as a gin beni matsukawabake. JR


    Oops! Schooled by JR . . . again.

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