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Thread: HenryC's Pond Construction

  1. #221
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    I would suggest studing the koi pond construction topics on the excellent Welch site: A Guide to Modern Koi Pond Construction.

    The site gives excellent advice on pond shapes, depths, gravity feed filters, installation of bottom drains with air domes...etc.
    Thanks! It says MODERN!
    I dont have any thing modern here... he he he!
    But I am sure some thing can be learned from it. Going to look at it now.

  2. #222
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato View Post
    Thanks Mike!
    That is what is worrying me. Is 12" not to great of a distance between BD and wall of pond.
    Since I want to be a bit economical (within reason) with my flow rates, that was a thing that was bothering me.
    What is the distance between your BD and wall, flow rate through the BD..?
    In short I want to know the minimum flow through a BD in order to keep it clean.
    You are looking at things the wrong way. Your goal should be to maximize the flow through the bottom drain, using gravity to flow the waste to your filtration system. Using a 4-inch diameter bottom drain for gravity flow, the maximum theoretical flow rate is something around 3200 gallons per hour. (I'm sure that's not quite right and somebody will correct my error.) But, most folks size their water pump to send water back to the pond at a somewhat lesser rate.

    You will get settlement in all the plumbing. Nobody maintains such a rapid flow as to prevent settlement. My bottom drains lead to a settlement chamber. Once per week when the chamber has been emptied, I open the valves to allow a torrent to flush through the pipes. There is always dirty water flushed out. This is drained away before re-filling the settlement chamber. All lines should have a means for flushing.

    My pond is 15.5 feet wide. This too wide for easily catching the koi by myself, and too wide to get the very rapid debris removal Henry attains. (But it is still quite effective as long as the aeration is on.) I would prefer that my pond was no more than 12 feet wide to make fish handling easier. I maximized the size for the spot where it was built, and I live with the downside of that decision.

  3. #223
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    You are looking at things the wrong way. Your goal should be to maximize the flow through the bottom drain, using gravity to flow the waste to your filtration system.

    If I want to be economical with my turn over rate even with ones an hour turn over rate, I will not be able to pass through enough water through the drains to keep them clean. I will need to flush them through the sump. Why I say that is because:
    My pond will be 4mx8m x 150cm deep 48000 liters. So if I use 2 pumps at 25000l/h with minimum friction loss, I would have ones an hour turn over .
    For a drain /pipe to be self cleaning I will need 0.75m/s velocity through a 4" pipe for it to be self cleaning. That velocity is equal to 25000l/h or almost 6000GPH.(which is a flow possible through 4" pipe with a head loss od 7-8cm for a pipe with 2 fitting 4m long.)

    If I want to add skimmers and bakki, I will have no flow left for them.
    So the only options I will have is :
    -add more flow in the pond (another pump)
    -or put less through the BD's and flush them regularly through the sump where I can get even 5m/s flow (maybe a bit less due to friction) which is more than enough to flush the drains in few seconds.
    What happened to the rule of thumb that says that turnover of ones in an hour is enough????Enough for what????
    The second point I am considering is that the flow within the pond has nothing to do with the BD (not much any way) It is directly proportional to the velocity of the jet's discharge. They are the ones that move the water around.
    Conclusion: rather have few jets with high velocity than many with low.
    so now knowing what speed of the water I need in the pond for the debris to be efficiently swept towards the BD (which is the most important thing to keep the pond clean) and what velocity is needed from the TPR to create that flow within the pond, I will know how much water and how many TPR I can put, for the pond to be efficiently swept, and the rest I can send through a bakki, or even use the bakki to feed a TPR (one or two)
    Example:
    tank 16 m long,
    3 m wide and 1 m deep,
    with four rotating cells (area:
    4 m  3 m)
    discharge TPR orifice with a diameter of 40 mm.r
    discharge velocity needed to obtain an average velocity of 15 cm/s(velocity of the water moving within the pond)
    would be 378 cm/s, (velocity of the TPR )
    which corresponds to a
    flow rate of 19 L/s and 1.43 water turnover per hour.
    That is why I am not concentrating too much (to a degree) about the flow rate through the BD, since if U are prepared to flush the BD through the sump, U can have much more economical turn over rate, without compromising the cleanliness of the bottom of the pond. But it comes at a price. U will need to flush the BD ones or twice a week, to avoid them being blocked, or ncrease your turnover rate to more than ones per hr.
    BTW to keep a BD line 4" u need close to 6000GPH flow rate.


    Using a 4-inch diameter bottom drain for gravity flow, the maximum theoretical flow rate is something around 3200 gallons per hour. (I'm sure that's not quite right and somebody will correct my error.)
    U can get the theoretical flow rate from here:
    Pipe friction head loss
    and friction loss due to fittings here
    Pipe fitting friction head loss
    This are the simplest automated flow calculators I managed to find.
    Look at this:
    CalcTool: Gravity-fed pipe flow calculator
    Theoretically U can have flow through 4" pipe 1m long, at a drop of 1m (vertical pipe)
    367400L/hr= 97000 GPH.
    (use roughness coefficient of 150 for PVC pipe)
    Check it out.

    But, most folks size their water pump to send water back to the pond at a somewhat lesser rate.
    That is the rate I wanted to know. The one gained by experience.


    You will get settlement in all the plumbing. Nobody maintains such a rapid flow as to prevent settlement. My bottom drains lead to a settlement chamber. Once per week when the chamber has been emptied, I open the valves to allow a torrent to flush through the pipes. There is always dirty water flushed out. This is drained away before re-filling the settlement chamber. All lines should have a means for flushing.

    My pond is 15.5 feet wide. This too wide for easily catching the koi by myself, and too wide to get the very rapid debris removal Henry attains. (But it is still quite effective as long as the aeration is on.) I would prefer that my pond was no more than 12 feet wide to make fish handling easier. I maximized the size for the spot where it was built, and I live with the downside of that decision.
    I can go a bit less that 12 feet, and your experience is educative for me... Thanks.
    Good advise Mike...
    Now it is my turn:
    I made a herding net, made out of shade cloth (cheap) two sticks (wood or metal ) vertically connected to the net, with a weight (chain) stitched on the bottom ( I folded my net and stitched crushed stones on the bottom.)
    U drug the two poles along the edge of the pond until U corner the fish in a space where U can easily net it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HenryC's Pond Construction-sam_2388-640x480-.jpg  

  4. #224
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Now it is my turn:
    I made a herding net, made out of shade cloth (cheap) two sticks (wood or metal ) vertically connected to the net, with a weight (chain) stitched on the bottom ( I folded my net and stitched crushed stones on the bottom.)
    U drug the two poles along the edge of the pond until U corner the fish in a space where U can easily net it.
    I think we would call that a seine net. A herding net is a large (30-36" diameter) shallow net on a long handle (3m or longer). It is used to select a koi and herd it to the surface. At the surface the koi is collected in a sock net, floating cage, or bowl.

  5. #225
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Yes, a seine is necessary when the pond is wide. I use a seine net (could do with a better one), and can do it by myself, but it takes me many times longer than it would if the pond was not so wide. Like anything that is time consuming or difficult, it becomes a bother and makes enjoyable aspects of the hobby more like work.

  6. #226
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Yes, a seine is necessary when the pond is wide. I use a seine net (could do with a better one), and can do it by myself, but it takes me many times longer than it would if the pond was not so wide. Like anything that is time consuming or difficult, it becomes a bother and makes enjoyable aspects of the hobby more like work.
    U are both right! My English terminology is not up to date...Dont know what to call my net... I just know it makes my life easier...
    I will start posting on my thread now the construction and planning of my pond as I go on.
    I might have hijacked this thread... Sorry.

  7. #227
    Sansai
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    Awesome pond and documentation of the build.....I stayed up very late reading this thread and felt I must post a big THANK YOU for the journey. I'm speechless!!!!! But I'm very enthused to get back to work on mine. Thanks again! -Mike

  8. #228
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Yep. Henry's pond has the best overall design for the size of any I know. He has tweeked a few things, such as adding a Zakki sieve. He's a busy guy. Perhaps he will come along and have time to update what he has done.
    rifraf likes this.

  9. #229
    Jumbo HenryC's Avatar
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    As Mike indicated, I have made a couple of changes since original construction. A few years ago I replace the bakki shower containers including a sieve on top. The media was getting too clogged up with algae glarf. The link below is the thread for that change:

    New bakki shower

    Last summer I added a Zakki Sieve prior to my bead filter. Zac makes a great product with excellent build quality. During the summer months, my bead filter would need to be back washed at least twice a week or the water flow would drop to almost nothing. With the Zakki Sieve prior to it, the bead filter never gets any debris in it. I would recommend it to anyone looking to make an easy upgrade.

    Henry
    Henry

    Orlando, FL

  10. #230
    Nisai creekds's Avatar
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    Last summer I added a Zakki Sieve prior to my bead filter. Zac makes a great product with excellent build quality. During the summer months, my bead filter would need to be back washed at least twice a week or the water flow would drop to almost nothing. With the Zakki Sieve prior to it, the bead filter never gets any debris in it. I would recommend it to anyone looking to make an easy upgrade.

    Henry[/QUOTE]

    Having just added a Zakki Sieve within the last two weeks, I second Henry's recommendation. Water quality and maintenance on my bead fitler has improved, from a DIY sieve I built two years ago. And cleaning the Zakki takes less than one minute and 5 gallons of water.

    Darrell

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