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Thread: The Bashing Has Begun!!!!!!!

  1. #11
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinh
    As a public non-profit koi chapter, we have to respect all comments and opinions from any forum or anywhere. We have to learn from both positive and negative comments. This will eventually help us to learn how to stand tall.

    --Dinh
    True true...This new ZNA club represents the next generation of hobbyist and evolution of old hobbyist. We will learn from whatever comes out of it....But first things first is the love of koi....

  2. #12
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Since Russ already posted the link from other forum that has a thread with some questions related to ZNA NorCal. The orginal Qs were as posted"

    "Everybody tells me ZNA is for hobbiests and that pro's have no place in its management. Is this true? Will it remain the case? .."

    Let me try to express this. I have studied the ZNA ByLaws and talked to number of ZNA officers in the State; People from ZNA Head Office for International Division in Tokyo; as well as some Judges from other Koi organization in helping me to draft the ByLaws for ZNA NorCal.

    I can't speak for ZNA in general. But as part of formation ZNA NorCal, I can tell you that: It is true. I will remain the case as specified in ZNA NorCal ByLaws as shown below:

    " A “Koi Professional” may not serve as either an elected or appointed officer. A “Koi professional” is defined as a person selling koi for monetary gain (business) for living."

    As for the President of ZNA NorCal, he has dedicated his life to the koi hobby as a hobbyists, koi dealer, renowned author, teacher and koi judges. However, he retired from his koi dealership more than 5 years ago. In short, he was a koi dealer in the past more than 5 years ago, not now... He since re-gained as a Koi Hobbyist..

    ZNA NorCal voted and elected him as the President of ZNA NorCal within the ByLaws.... and I thanks him for his willing to lead and to serve the club.

    --Dinh

  3. #13
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Went to NI board to read all they have to say. Basically, first they *****ed about the fact that this individual became president. Once that was ironed out they started crying about him becoming a ZNA judge by trying to circumvent the process. Idon't and haven't seen that happening. With that being said, IF the ZNA Home Office decides to stretch the rules for an individual with as much to give to the hobby, who the hell are any of them/us to say, "I object"!? This whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion IMHO. Move on to something else!!

  4. #14
    Jumbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee
    First..they are speaking the truth, they are not hiding who they are, and they are discussing the basic philosophy of two organizations as well as their beliefs, AS WELL AS TALKING ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL's INVOLVEMENT within the organization.
    Second...what the h-e-double hockey sticks (brian's lame sense of morality ) did you think people were going to say?

    I'd be dang ( ) happy if people would speak openly and plainly (and most of all HONESTLY) about me. Whoever this is should be quite proud that they are discussing it in the open...if it were a private conversation no rebuttal could be offered and many untruths would be elaborated.

    Kudos to NI
    luke, you are damn drunk on this. This individual started the ZNA to become the chairperson ? and to become ANZ judge ? take my middle finger.


    stan

  5. #15
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    Stan,
    Really uncalled for Dude. I read the thread and frankly see it all as a storm in a tea cup. But Luke is right, better in the open than secret meetings and exchanges behind closed doors! People are thinking these things whether you like it or no. Better to address the issue publicly. The argument was balanced and something was to be said for both sides of the coin, so what's the buzz? People will make up their own minds and you sticking your middle finger up isn't going to help. Take it someplace else will ya?

    BTW for those of you wishing to reply to this thread but are not yet registered on the NI, registration is not automatic. It happens when the admin gets around to it. I had to sent them an extra telling them it was "taking too long so stuff it" before I got my password confirmed.

    If anyone wishes to add something to the debate on the NI, PM it to me and I will be happy to post it under my name with a reference to yourself.

    B.Scott
    Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

  6. #16
    Honmei
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    A few thoughts

    First off, I am posting as an individual, not as an AKCA judge nor as a ZNA member. I have no "pull" in regards to either organiztion as it relates to this subject.

    All that being said, I've belonged to more than a few clubs over the years. I've helped to write bylaws and start more than a couple new clubs as well. I am not being critical of the new Northern CA, ZNA club either with my comments. Having seen many clubs "used" by professionals for personal business proliferation, I have always attempted to help structure clubs so that although businesses can participate and support clubs while still keeping these clubs free of direct business influences in how they are run and managed. Helping clubs maintain their "purity" from these influences can also come at a cost as well.

    This is not to say that "retired" professionals can not play a part either. Many "rules" are set up within organizations to help ensure that the organization's "direction" are kept on track. Making "exceptions" to these rules is a very delicate and often times painful experience, either at the time or down the road. "Exceptions" often lead to crys of "favoratism" which can pull that organization apart, sometimes from within. This is not only true in clubs, but also business.

    I believe that the AKCA judging programs allow for "retired professionals" to join. Not knowing for sure, I believe it is after 3 years of retirement and there have been multiple cases where former professionals have joined the AKCA judging program. But like all others, they also have gone through the candidacy program.

    Why would these rules exist? Again, not speaking for any organization, I would imagine that it is not only for the purposes of training within that specific group, it also allows for a period of time to "test" those individuals as to their "new" status. Between a period of pre acceptance (waiting after retirement 3 years as an example) and a period of 3 year candidacy, I would think that everyone would agree that ANY individual was not simply doing the judging route to inspire future dealership sales. There have been more than a few individuals who have joined the AKCA judging program only to attempt to use the certification for future business purposes. This definitely goes against the grain, or the "intent" of the program and the the status of "beyond reproach".

    I don't think the intent of anyone on NI (self included) was to "Bash" anyone person, organization or club, but to question the process and attempt to justify any exceptions without opening any organization up to claims of "favoratism" or other critisims. Remember, that once there have been "exceptions", it becomes even more difficult to enforce or stand by rules and thus a process of "errosion" starts.

    Its also important to note that one does not have to be a "certified" judge to actually judge a Koi show. Clubs have the right to select whomever they wish to judge, even as "head judge" under the AKCA. Not sure how ZNA would look at that though...meaning, would they consider a show ZNA sanctioned with a non certified ZNA judge as "head judge"?

    Steve
    Last edited by schildkoi; 03-06-2006 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Typos

  7. #17
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    IMHO, as a KB board member and not as a member of ZNA NORCAL, Mr. Fujita's has had his hand in the hobby in California for more than 30 years. Was one of the founding members of ZNA in CA. He has to his credit many "ah" shows in judging, some "ah" credited judges that are AKCA and ZNA find him as their mentor. Process of getting credited as a judge? What is that? Either way, you look at it, the man has done more for the hobby than some on the "Good O'l Boy's" Board....If Waddy wanted to become a ZNA judge, there wouldn't be an open discussion there...There would be tears of joy from the news of that...Oh well, guess I better go back to my hole....As a GEN"X", we are better seen not heard....I forgot this is a "Baby Boomer Hobby"

    Yeah this topic is open for discussion, but if Grant can't be here to speak openly too, then it is a "Hate" fest....
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  8. #18
    Honmei
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    Aquitori

    I think your perceptions are a tad misguided...at least as it comes to "Waddy" and "the good ol boys". It is no secret that Peter's son, Tim, is my best friend and I am fairly close to Peter as well, as is JR. I would be the most vocal AGAINST either Tim or Peter being allowed into a judging program, let alone bypassing set procedures...well, not speaking for JR but I would think he may be the only one more vocal against it than I.

    You see, it is not about an individual. Its not about Mr. Fujita (who I also hold in very high regard). Its about what is best for an organization in the "big picture", macro verses micro thinking as I tried to convey in my previous post. JMHO

    Steve

  9. #19
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    I would be the most vocal AGAINST either Tim or Peter being allowed into a judging program, let alone bypassing set procedures...
    Steve,
    Do you say this because of their commercial ties or for other reasons? Suppose Peter had been retired for a few years, would you feel differently?

    B.Scott

  10. #20
    Jumbo Regenmeneer's Avatar
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    Suppose Peter had been retired for a few years, would you feel differently?

    B.Scott
    Even if Mr Waddington Sr had been retired for some years, he would still have an interest if his son took over. Not sure how ZNA handles situations like this though!?

    Regenmeneer

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