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Thread: The Bashing Has Begun!!!!!!!

  1. #21
    Honmei
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    B. Scott

    As Regenmener points out, yes I would still be against it. Even if Tim was not in the Koi business, I would still be against it. Without at least him following the same procedures as those already in place such as the candacy program. Its nothing against Peter nor Grant, but I guess my business teachings and methodoligies have "experienced" me in not going outside of the procedures set in place for specific reasons. I have an old saying, "no good deed goes unpunished". Going outside of "procedures" typically comes back to bite one in the arse. But hey, that's just me.

    Steve

  2. #22
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    Not called for ? well, that is exactly what is being casted on ZNA nor cal. This bunch of bashers are truely SOB by telling 1 line of truth : fujita being the chairperson, and follow that line with a bunch of lies and speculations, packaged that being the whole truth ad broadcast it.

    stan
    Last edited by jnorth; 03-06-2006 at 12:22 PM. Reason: A little too strongly worded

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
    As Regenmener points out, yes I would still be against it. Even if Tim was not in the Koi business, I would still be against it. Without at least him following the same procedures as those already in place such as the candacy program. Its nothing against Peter nor Grant, but I guess my business teachings and methodoligies have "experienced" me in not going outside of the procedures set in place for specific reasons. I have an old saying, "no good deed goes unpunished". Going outside of "procedures" typically comes back to bite one in the arse. But hey, that's just me.

    Steve

    steve, you are insdie out, and upside down, at best. You don't even try to dig out the truth. What is your 'experienced procedure' ?

    stan

  4. #24
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinh
    Since Russ already posted the link from other forum that has a thread with some questions related to ZNA NorCal. The orginal Qs were as posted"

    "Everybody tells me ZNA is for hobbiests and that pro's have no place in its management. Is this true? Will it remain the case? .."

    Let me try to express this. I have studied the ZNA ByLaws and talked to number of ZNA officers in the State; People from ZNA Head Office for International Division in Tokyo; as well as some Judges from other Koi organization in helping me to draft the ByLaws for ZNA NorCal.

    I can't speak for ZNA in general. But as part of formation ZNA NorCal, I can tell you that: It is true. I will remain the case as specified in ZNA NorCal ByLaws as shown below:

    " A “Koi Professional” may not serve as either an elected or appointed officer. A “Koi professional” is defined as a person selling koi for monetary gain (business) for living."

    As for the President of ZNA NorCal, he has dedicated his life to the koi hobby as a hobbyists, koi dealer, renowned author, teacher and koi judges. However, he retired from his koi dealership more than 5 years ago. In short, he was a koi dealer in the past more than 5 years ago, not now... He since re-gained as a Koi Hobbyist..

    ZNA NorCal voted and elected him as the President of ZNA NorCal within the ByLaws.... and I thanks him for his willing to lead and to serve the club.

    --Dinh
    I have a question after reading this. I wish to show some koi this summer. I do sell domestic koi on ebay and on my website. Not too many...maybe 5 per week. I use this to fund my involvement in the hobby. Not really for profit. Do you guys think its ok for me to compete as an amateur? That is what I was intending.
    I spoke with a large wholesale koi dealer about this. He said..I sell tens of thousands of koi each season...you are definitely an amateur and should compete as one. let me know what you guys think.

  5. #25
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz
    I have a question after reading this. I wish to show some koi this summer. I do sell domestic koi on ebay and on my website. Not too many...maybe 5 per week. I use this to fund my involvement in the hobby. Not really for profit. Do you guys think its ok for me to compete as an amateur? That is what I was intending.
    I spoke with a large wholesale koi dealer about this. He said..I sell tens of thousands of koi each season...you are definitely an amateur and should compete as one. let me know what you guys think.
    To me and what I intent when writting the ByLaws for ZNA NorCal, YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED AS A "KOI PROFESSIONAL" AS DEFINED IN ZNA NORCAL BYLAWS.

    Glad you asked...

    --Dinh

  6. #26
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    I forgot to add the reference to the related article as part of the ZNA NorCal ByLaws. Here it is:

    "...
    Article VI - Shows and Judging
    Section A - Any person, except for a “Koi professional”, may enter fish in the club's ZNA sanctioned show. A “Koi professional” is defined as a licensed person selling koi for monetary gain (business) for living.

    ..."

    BestR regards,
    --Dinh

    Quote Originally Posted by dinh
    To me and what I intent when writting the ByLaws for ZNA NorCal, YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED AS A "KOI PROFESSIONAL" AS DEFINED IN ZNA NORCAL BYLAWS.

    Glad you asked...

    --Dinh

  7. #27
    Honmei
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    Ok Stan....and Dinh

    "Experienced" and "Procedures" were seperate, not together as you quoted. But here goes. I have written numerous procedures and policies within multiple large corporations covering a widce spectrum of subjects including safety, security, house rules, equipment operating procedures etc, etc, etc. . each set of rules and each specific rule are in place for a reason and although some may not immediately understand them or think them "stupid", there are reasons for them none the less.

    You would think that something such as "do not use hairdryer in the bathtub" would not be necessary? Yet a manufacturer has actually added it to their cautionary statements because someone actually did it. Likewise organizations set policies and procedures in place for a purppose and I have elluded to why some of those are in place in regards to this subject. Allowing "favoritism" towards one opens up the organization towards undo scrutiny froms multiple parties. Attempting to justify the "exceptions" ussually falls short and sets a bad precedent that as I said before, errodes the process as a whole.

    Dinh,
    To play devils advocate here, if I didn't have a license and made no profit while working a seperate job, could I still show Koi? There is a difference between "culling" a collection for improvement purposes and "selling to support ones hobby". Selling to support ones hobby is a means of "for profit" since by definition its making money to offset improvements or expenses.

    Nothing against you Brutus at all. The problem arises under your situation as to what is acceptable and what isn't What is the difference between 5 Koi per week and 500 Koi per week sold if I do not make a profit and only support a larger "hobby"?

    Just some food for thought guys.

    Steve

  8. #28
    Sansai
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    I don't see any problems with retired professionals wanting to stick around and contribute to the hobby. I hope many of out other fine dealers and US breeders stick around and contribute long after they retire from the koi business also. The membership voted for who they wanted within there bylaws, there choice. I was at Koi America and not too surprised at the results. It's been seven months of conspiracy theories and pouting since then, I hate to see a hobbiest fish award turn an otherwise good person into a sore loser. JMO

    (I would consider Brutus a professional if is currently still selling the fish)

  9. #29
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Steve,

    Well said.
    I have read all posts in that thread from NI forum. We have to respect other comments; opinions, or suggestions regardless we agree to it or not.

    From my personal point of view and agreed with other KB members that: People bring some question/concern to open public for discusion. It is good thing to do that with the internet age nowadays. Debate and learn from it.

    That thread will help the koi hobby in general. For ZNA NorCal, we have the ByLaws and all have been done within the NorCal Bylaws. One thing, I hope, no personal life shall be brought up to the public like running for the USA President....;-))

    --Dinh

    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
    First off, I am posting as an individual, not as an AKCA judge nor as a ZNA member. I have no "pull" in regards to either organiztion as it relates to this subject.

    All that being said, I've belonged to more than a few clubs over the years. I've helped to write bylaws and start more than a couple new clubs as well. I am not being critical of the new Northern CA, ZNA club either with my comments. Having seen many clubs "used" by professionals for personal business proliferation, I have always attempted to help structure clubs so that although businesses can participate and support clubs while still keeping these clubs free of direct business influences in how they are run and managed. Helping clubs maintain their "purity" from these influences can also come at a cost as well.

    This is not to say that "retired" professionals can not play a part either. Many "rules" are set up within organizations to help ensure that the organization's "direction" are kept on track. Making "exceptions" to these rules is a very delicate and often times painful experience, either at the time or down the road. "Exceptions" often lead to crys of "favoratism" which can pull that organization apart, sometimes from within. This is not only true in clubs, but also business.

    I believe that the AKCA judging programs allow for "retired professionals" to join. Not knowing for sure, I believe it is after 3 years of retirement and there have been multiple cases where former professionals have joined the AKCA judging program. But like all others, they also have gone through the candidacy program.

    Why would these rules exist? Again, not speaking for any organization, I would imagine that it is not only for the purposes of training within that specific group, it also allows for a period of time to "test" those individuals as to their "new" status. Between a period of pre acceptance (waiting after retirement 3 years as an example) and a period of 3 year candidacy, I would think that everyone would agree that ANY individual was not simply doing the judging route to inspire future dealership sales. There have been more than a few individuals who have joined the AKCA judging program only to attempt to use the certification for future business purposes. This definitely goes against the grain, or the "intent" of the program and the the status of "beyond reproach".

    I don't think the intent of anyone on NI (self included) was to "Bash" anyone person, organization or club, but to question the process and attempt to justify any exceptions without opening any organization up to claims of "favoratism" or other critisims. Remember, that once there have been "exceptions", it becomes even more difficult to enforce or stand by rules and thus a process of "errosion" starts.

    Its also important to note that one does not have to be a "certified" judge to actually judge a Koi show. Clubs have the right to select whomever they wish to judge, even as "head judge" under the AKCA. Not sure how ZNA would look at that though...meaning, would they consider a show ZNA sanctioned with a non certified ZNA judge as "head judge"?

    Steve

  10. #30
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    steve,
    3 things I suggest you add to your 'procedure' are :
    #1 - find the truth, or at least figure out what is going on before you jump into conclusion
    #2 - don't drag people who are not involved into your procedure.
    #3 - don't trust your eyes, use your brain.

    If you report to me, I would have you submitted yor letter of resignation on the spot.

    stan

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