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Thread: American Koi vs Japanese Koi

  1. #11
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    The difference . . .

    can best be expressed in mathematical terms.

    The # of American-bred Grand Champions (@ a decent sized show) produced in the approximate 40 year history of American koi shows = zero.

    American breeders have and continue to produce quality koi that have won at lower and mid levels -- but they are by best accounts at least 10 years behind the Japanese.

    There are some outstanding American breeders -- but they don't produce the staggering numbers of high quality koi that the Japanese do, nor do they have the facilities to grow on enough koi, year after year, to reach the championship level.
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  2. #12
    Oyagoi
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    The other main difference I see Don, is something that will always keep the Japanese on top, is cultural mindset, due to thousands of years of cultural development. That is the view of how those in competitive businesses in the same industry are part of their cultural 'family' and how they will help, support, and rescue one another from disaster.

    Here in the US it is just the opposite. Here we atack, belittle, scam, and try to destroy and snuff out any potential competitors, preferrably before they r able to even get going. In Japan just the opposite mentality and hearts exist, where they will help those who want to try and are willing to sacrifice all they can to do so, and are willing to protect and defend their entire culture's respected product and industry from generation to generation. Here those values are rare and the common values of selfishness, and willingness to steal from one another's ideas and dreams rather than helping one another prevails. There the breeders help each other, here and in other parts of the world the opposite atmosphere and value system seems to prevail. We prefer eavesdrooping, snooping, hiring private eyes to spy out others, slander, bio bomb dropping, and internet attacks. The result is they have a depth of resources and resilience due to teamwork we have not yet touched.

    I do not believe we as a culture will overcome the barriers of water quality without some really in depth and inclusive teamwork and sharing of knowledge and resources. The result is a few will overcome it alone and put out some quality koi at larger sizes, but that will never compete with the larger number of those in Japan doing the same thing who are there backing each other up and working together all day long every day. In short, in America we need to form a 'we' mentality and get rid of those dominating things with the 'me' mentality. Otherwise we will live, as a group, under the thumbs of those in control and with massive resources behind them due to collective teamwork or individual wealth and/or market and industry positioning.

    In Japan we have folks who want to dominate the industry as a group, not individuals. Here we have folks who want to monoplize the industry or things in it themselves. So there the competition there is to advance the whole group and to be remarkable and respected within the group. Here the competition is to be the one, the only, the omnipotent, and undeniable koi market champion. So our culture produces mercilessness, where their culture produces mercy and help for one another, a totally different living and market atmosphere. Stress here is much higher due to it. Exposure here is dangerous due to it. Idea and plan sharing here will get you ruined instead of helped, unless you are a damsel in distress......just kidding and know Judy is doing all she can to pull it off, a great oppurtunity to help out for the rest of us and bring some change in the atmosphere and thus change our trajectory as a national group of breeders.......

    I remember when the first American surf board manufacturers stood up the old timers were afraid it would ruin the surf world and industry for Hawaii, but just the opposite happened. I think the koi world and some of the leaders in it are in a similar position with similar concerns and feelings right now.

    Hawaii will always be the mecca and capital of surfing, and Japan will always be the mecca and capital of koi.
    'Sometimes it take a talking donkey to turn things around in the right direction, ask Balaam."

  3. #13
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    I think that it is eventual that some top breeders will set up farms in the USA. I know Suda has an interest in blackwater creek farm. I just feel it is only a matter of time until sakai, momotaro, dainichi and the other big names do the same. The US is a big country, with areas that have reasonable prices on real estate. Why not expand overseas? When this happens, we will see big time champions from the U.S.A.

  4. #14
    Sansai Doug Ward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee
    "We" get koi from "Them".
    And "we" breed "them".
    "We" get the same fry, with the same genetic potential as "Them".
    But "We" have different objectives, knowledge, beliefs, and ability than "Them"
    Let's nix "ability".
    American greed is a factor, in some spots ( refusing to properly cull)
    The Japanese breeders pruduce as much junk as the Amerikkans ( sorta).
    They just get rid of it before anyone sees it.
    AOL Keyword " Pride"

  5. #15
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Blammo . . .

    it ain't about the junk produced, it's about comparing the best of the best.

    Produce vast quantities of quality koi then cull them ruthlessly; place them in mud ponds for the summer and bring them indoors for the winter so they'll thrive; sell the very best of 'em to owners who will leave them with you to grow 'em on, year after year, until they're ready to compete at the highest levels; then buy back the best of the best for your breeding progam. Generation after generation after generation.

    That's the Japanese assembly line for GCs. It's a system thing and America doesn't have it.

  6. #16
    Sansai Doug Ward's Avatar
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    [QUOTE= It's a system thing and America doesn't have it.[/QUOTE]
    Brett and Brady do.
    Been there, seen that. DONE that..
    That's two.
    The rest,, I can't say ............

  7. #17
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Geez, Blammo . . .

    another long, liquid lunch at the club? Who you trying to BS, anyway?

    I love Brett and Brady. They do a fantastic job with what they've got. They're both very talented and totally dedicated. They're valuable members of this, and other, koi boards. They've produced some killer koi. OK?

    But come on, gimme a break. We've seen Brady's operation on his KoiFixx DVD's; we've seen Sakai Hiroshima's and Momo's operations on DVD, too, and only a BOOB would equate the two levels.

    We're talking total systems here: Systems that are huge, that encompass the lifespan of the koi and that are generational in scope. Big difference, Doug.

  8. #18
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    I think the overseas domestic production will pass the American Market as far as producing big marketable fish...At Garden this year there was 2 Super Jumbo Gosanke from Taiwan roughly 34" and 35", now if Brady or Brett can produce something that big...then you haven't seen it all...Right?

  9. #19
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    The time is fastly approaching that koi hobbyists will be thankfull for the skill of their local breeders.....disease and shipping expenses will contribute but the real fun is when governmental restrictions begin to be applied.We seen it in the bonsai industry as well as beef......

    Your right, some japanese have seen the writing on the wall and california koi farms as well as blackwater are just a few examples of what happened to the auto industry. Build em locally with local workers......What would henry ford have thought if you told him back in his day who would own the auto market today.

    I think when more koi kracies look at the quality of what's being produced
    with Mat,Brady, Maurice and Brett and get over the thought that "domestic" is inferior,our national breeders will begin to afford to continue to grow their business with better breeders and facilities. IT TAKES SUPPORT! To get the quality of japanese koi MANY MANY pairs are bred and the yield is not that big. Yes look at the size of the facilities of ther sakai's in hiroshima and isawa.
    Kind of comparing david and goliath for sure. In the UK and America some top quality koi are being produced, are you willing to pay for them, or shrug them off as domestics, thereby producing a self fulfilling phophesy that they'll never compete?

    In every industry you have to have a standard by which all others in the same market are compared.I think the standard is japanese fish...but one thing about life is change....and as I read the road ahead....we'll all be better off looking at the koi and it's merits not just the Name Tag that goes with it.

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward
    Let's nix "ability".
    American greed is a factor, in some spots ( refusing to properly cull)
    The Japanese breeders pruduce as much junk as the Amerikkans ( sorta).
    They just get rid of it before anyone sees it.
    AOL Keyword " Pride"
    Ability can be taught..as in they have the ability because they have learned what to look for earlier...as well as Discipline...as in they have the ability to make the hard call and cull the trash

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