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Thread: Koi problems, Pics help Diagnose

  1. #21
    Nisai bigred's Avatar
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    Thanks, it is very frustrating and stressful. I'm ordering the net and Chloramine T/BDGX today. I also have a scope but no slides. Do you know where I can get some slides?

  2. #22
    Nisai bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewn15
    How is your water quality? are they all died at the same time frame?
    what about the rest of your other koi?
    The first pict looks like hemical burn than parasite.
    They died one by one with the symptoms of sunk in eyes, marking like the picture, and I had one with a bruise on it's side. Most were like the pics.

  3. #23
    REC
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    Nisai
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    Hi Steve,

    Sorry for the delay. I usually just drop by Koi-Bito when Jim North points to something interesting here. First, you need to understand that the advice people have given you here is spot on.. and they are only trying to help you. No one else can fix the problem but you and you are the eyes and hands of the people who want to help. So, while we appreciate your frustration, consider that of the people who are trying to help as well.

    OK.. here is the situation with just facts and no fantasy...

    1. I asked a number of questions in my initial post and some have been answered, most not... the really important question was about the "pH buffer" product you used. We need this information. It is critical to finding the proximate cause of the problem.

    2. This is going to be a blunt statement... your fish are in serious trouble and you stand to lose some of them. And the reason is quite clear (to me, at least): anytime we are dealing with such significant gill damage, we have to first diagnose what caused it and second treat both the cause and then the disease. And in most cases, these treatments are contraindicated as treating parasites with PP or formalin with open wound gill damage will just increase the damage to the wounds. See my point? This is why we don't want to guess what the cause is nor do we want to shotgun the treatment because I will guarantee that if we do, we will kill more fish. So we need to be exact in our treatment protocol. And frankly, Steve... this is one of the toughest types of cases to fix.

    3. You have to examine the fish in the pond. We have to know what we are dealing with. Everyone one of us has had to catch fish before we so know what you are up against. It needs be done with as little stress as possible because you are correct, these are already weakened fish and will not take much more. I like the seine idea and regular old pond netting will work well.

    4. Treatment of impacted gills requires that the fish be placed in a quarantine/hospital tank. The sheer number of pathogens naturally occuring in the pond and the effectiveness of the medications we need to treat the disease (Chloramine-T/BDGX) dictate the use of a hospital tank. Remember, I never said this was going to be easy. Plus, the effectiveness of Chloramine-T is also reduced significantly by organics in the water. And this is something we can control better in a hospital tank instead of our pond.

    5. There is no magic cure or one product that is going to solve this.. we have multiple things to address and in more or less this order:

    - understanding the extent of the problem...condition of the other fish

    - identifying the parasite or other proximate cause of the problem so we can plan a treatment regimen. The damage to the gills becomes the paramount consideration in deciding which med to use here. And this won't be easy.

    - treating the bacterial infection with the right protocol targeted at our best guess of the bacteria typically found in ponds. We know this to be aeromonas and flexobacter columnaris but it really does not matter which one is the target bacteria, because we can treat for one and get the other with the same med.

    - managing the hospital tank water and conditions to remove stress.

    For this, you will need one or more hospital tanks depending on the number and size of fish affected. Remember that changing their environment and placing them in a restricted areas such as a hospital tank will be stressful to them so we need to factor that in as well. The hospital tanks should be fresh water, treated for chlorine if applicable, and salted to .3% (three pounds of salt per 100 gallons of water.. table salt will work just fine). You will need a filter/pump system and good air stones. Have plenty of Amquel or Prime on hand to manage the ammonia. Also, the water will need to be held to as close to 78 deg F as you can get it. Water parameters such as KH levels need to be held firm. Once we have the system running, then we address the parasite problem, even if it is to just exclude them as the problem. After that, we work on healing the gills with the Chloramine-T.

    The biggest unknown at this point is what chem may be required to kill of the parasites. At a minimum I would have Prazi and ProForm C on hand. Yeah, I know I told you ProForm C may be more harm than good but it also may be our only hope depending on the bug we are dealing with.

    And finally, accept that fact that we are going into triage here and it may come down to those we can save and thoe we cannot.

    I do apologize if this sounds terse, but this is serious business and sometimes we just need to go to the bottom line and start there.

    Oh.. regarding the current behavior of your fish... they are piping and flashing at dusk (or at least in the later afternoon shade) because the photosynthesis process is starting to produce CO2 and given that these fish are already stressed and that possibly their gills are compromised, the most O2 rich water is at the surface and the increased acidic nature of the water from CO2 is itching them. During the daylight hours, CO2 is removed from the water and O2 produced.. this allows them to relax on the bottom. It is critical to maintain a solid KH level (100-120) to help neutralize the CO2. Baking soda works wonders here.

    Questions??

    REC

  4. #24
    Nisai
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    i have post to you about ANTI-FLUKE of AP, somehow, the post losts, I have to repeat here for your information: couple months ago, i have a severe case of fluke, i use ANTI-FLUKE 5 times, each time 2 consecutive doses. separate 48 hours, some how, fluke still growing. ANTI-FLUKE disapear in one day, you have to repeat every day in order to maintain the medecin in water at least 10 days. I learn my lesson 32 fish gone before supaverm comes. Fluke is the hardest to kill do to the complication of eggs and life span. A dead body fluke can still pop out his children (protected by father body). Gill fluke eggs take 4 days to hatch in normal temp. some time it hide under a heavy slime then even harder to eradicate. If you fish is dying one by one, it's Fluke. Supaverm or Prazzi can get the job done. However you still have to scope and check after several treatment. Manufacturer states that use one time. But have to use 2 times or 3 times after checking by scope each time. Fluke is easy to find on the scope, just make sure do it in a hurry, it dies in about 2 minutes by then it hard to see because it is tranparent.
    Do not feel bad, you are not alone at all. we all have to go thru this, and to be honest, i'm not proud at all for what i know about this stuff. Even sometime just wonder how the hell i get into this mess.

  5. #25
    Oyagoi
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    You have to learn to catch your fish. My advice is to move slowly with a screen or net and trap them in one end, the slower you move the lower their stress will be. Then SLOWLY place the net on the pond bottom under them and gently lift. Your manner will determine how badly they freak. Once you really learn how to deal with them and they know you, you don't even need a net. I can pick mine up by hand. If I go rushing in, forget it, they run and then I lose it.

    The shotgun approach is what lots of folks recommend around the net. I have seen it kill as many fish as it has saved and never really hit the problem. Especially with PP. I have seen it not work, wipe out the biofilter, and kill everything later due to the consequences of that. That is why REC is telling you to move slowly and carefully, find out what the problem is to determine treatment course and meds and even more importantly, dosage. Most of the time if you give them a dose strong enuf to kill the worst things, it kills fish too if they have significant gill damage.

    REC is a vet, make sure you listen to a Dr. with advice in his specific area of study. Would you ask an electrical engineer how to build a bridge? I hope not. Same thing applies here. Do the best you can to do what he recommended.

    Slides can be bought at the Discovery Store. They sell alot of scientific stuff for cheap in the kids section, it is designed for homeschool parents to be able to set up a full lab so they will have it all. I think a full setup from them runs $30.

    Can anyone post a link to one of the many sites containing pics of the different flukes etc so he can compare and know which one he has? Does koivet still have pics like that on their site?
    'Sometimes it take a talking donkey to turn things around in the right direction, ask Balaam."

  6. #26
    Honmei keokoi's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=junglegeorge12]

    REC is a vet, make sure you listen to a Dr. with advice in his specific area of study. Would you ask an electrical engineer how to build a bridge? I hope not. Same thing applies here. Do the best you can to do what he recommended.

    QUOTE]


    REC is not a vet...

    Although he is very experienced with Koi Health I would definately listen to him.

    Sup Richard thanks for helping this hobbyist out..

    Joe

  7. #27
    REC
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    Nisai
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    Very true... I am not a vet... My main purpose for being in this hobby is for the science of it and so I "specialize" in koi health issues. I routinely have my "techniques" vetted by some real life practicing fish vets. I also have direct contact with with almost all of the practicing koi health vets through the KHA and other programs, so anything I need help with I can turn to a vet to get the assistance I need.

    But I am an engineer, so I am qualified to help with those types of problems.


    (laugh here..)

    REC

  8. #28
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Bigred:

    After you follow REC's advice and have the fish in a hospital tank, I think you have some water issues to address. It should not be tea-colored. I suspect that your waterlillies and other plants are potted in a medium which is leaching into the water. It is entirely possible to keep smaller sized koi with plants, but there is balancing to be done. One of the things you have to do is let the newly submerged soils "age". For a period of a few months, all sorts of substances are released into the water. (These might have hurt the immune response of your koi, contributing to your current situation, or may have a more direct involvement, or may be irrelevant to your problem ... don't know.) You will need to perform more frequent and larger water changes to keep the water uncontaminated. Eventually, the soil becomes a submerged soil and the contaminants released are not so severe. (But do not follow the typical watergardening advice of adding fertilizer to the lillies monthly ... fine for the lillies, but not for the health of the pond with fish.)

    If all the fish are placed in a hospital tank, I'd suggest you perform as close to a 100% water change as you can and keep on top of the water quality parameters so your koi have good quality water to return to.

    [I do not believe keeping larger koi with plants is workable without too many compromises. So, the purists ready to jump on me for suggesting they can be successfully kept together, please note that I said "smaller sized koi". ]

  9. #29
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Lost posts re-addressed

    If my memory serves me correctly you mentioned the other day (in a disappearing post) that the mulm in your settlement smelled like rotten eggs, and I replied (in another lost post), that H2S gassing could be a possible source contaminant. (If I'm thinking of someone else on another board I apologize in advance for the booboo). If that is the case it could help to explain not only the mortality problem but part of the Tea colored water issue that has arisen as well.

  10. #30
    REC
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    Nisai
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    Good catch, Larry if that is indeed the case. Hydrogen Sulfide can kill fish in a hurry but will not cause the gills to be damaged as the ones we have seen are. It just poisons their systems. Gills from a poisoned fish are usually pale but fully intact.


    REC

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