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Thread: It's Name That Pattern Time Again

  1. #11
    Honmei
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    Technically, Kuchibeni (lipstick), refers to Hi ONLY on the lips of the Koi.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    kuchi"beni" yes and I can see how you would argue that the Kuchigasm is excessive.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Smile Yo Russ

    Your description of Kuchibeni is spot on.

    I'm pretty sure Tony typo'd when he may have meant Kuchiboni... Or not.

  4. #14
    Tategoi erwinsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori
    Now my question would be, is it a menkaburi or kuchibeni. What would be the proper discription?
    It's more of "benihana" ~ red nose

  5. #15
    Tategoi erwinsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangreaal

    And this brings me to my next question: Will this pattern grow with the koi like a generous swelling of pride, or will it appear to shrink in size as the koi ages--will it keep its same shape or will it "blossom" as it develops? And...

    ...do you think it might make an impression in the 9-10" size class at the Sacramento show? (whatever class this size koi would be shown in?)

    Marie<----barely BARELY keeping a straight face
    In keeping with Akinosan's theme, I think the pattern will get 'shlonger' as the koi grows, or as Sangreaal put it "grow with the koi like a generous swelling of pride". LOL!!! And yes it would make an impression at the Sac Show.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    However it might want to stay away from the Syphkiss(CFKS)

  7. #17
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangreaal
    Kaku Tan or Kutsubera? It's not menkaburi--menkaburi is hi that covers the eyes. It's not kuchibeni, because the hi doesn't touch the lips. It's not really maruten, because the hi isn't basically round. Kaku tan is a squarish marking on the face, which it might be, but I'm not sure. Kutsubera seems to come closest, but without a reference pic of what kutsubera is, again, I'm not sure.

    Now you suggest it is a yondan pattern, but I only see two hi plates instead of four, unless the lone marking on the face is a step and the lone dot of hi on the tail tube is a step. What constitutes a step, anyway?

    And this brings me to my next question: Will this pattern grow with the koi like a generous swelling of pride, or will it appear to shrink in size as the koi ages--will it keep its same shape or will it "blossom" as it develops? And...

    ...do you think it might make an impression in the 9-10" size class at the Sacramento show? (whatever class this size koi would be shown in?)

    Marie<----barely BARELY keeping a straight face
    Marie

    MARUTEN refers to a separate pattern on the head. If the pattern extends beyond the head and onto the shoulder it is no longer maruten. It does not have to be round to be maruten only isolated on the head.

    Yes, after looking at the pics a second time, technically it is a four-stepped or yondan pattern. All steps at least touch the dorsal line therefore each pattern of hi qualifies as a step.

    You would definitely raise eyebrows at the Sacramento show, I just don't know if that's good or bad!! The competition in the 9-10" or Size 2 also include Size 1 fish competing for the award of "Baby Champion". I have already seen a few fish that will be competing.IT WILL BE STIFF COMPETITION!! May the best kohaku win!!

    No, the pattern does not really "grow" as the fish gets larger. If anything, the pattern "looks" like it gets smaller in some cases due to the fact that the most growth on a koi isn't length alone. It's at the shoulder area. As this increases in volume, the pattern begins to "sit" on top of the fish with more white visible along the sides. This is why young "finished" fish never look balanced and finished at a larger size. The pattern just appears to have become too small for the body. Learning how to look at tosai and nisai and projecting what you hope they will become as they become 4-8 years old or older is the secret to success in enjoying this hobby and your fish for many years to come. I know, everyone's gonna say, "well, you know everybody enjoys the hobby at their own level" Hogwash!!!!! Anyone who really enjoys this hobby learns to appreciate the finer points of raising nishikigoi and one day, they'll walk out to their pond and no longer be satisfied with what they see. They are now developing a "refined eye"and are becoming more attuned to what this hobby is all about - LIVING ART!!!! I may never get to own a Rembrandt or Renoit, but I sure do have some Thomas Kinkades in my collection!! I also have some work done by 3rd graders - anybody interested??!!

    Mike

  8. #18
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Smile Mike, I don't know what you do for a living, but you sure are a great teacher!

    Quote Originally Posted by koiczar
    Marie

    MARUTEN refers to a separate pattern on the head. If the pattern extends beyond the head and onto the shoulder it is no longer maruten. It does not have to be round to be maruten only isolated on the head.

    Yes, after looking at the pics a second time, technically it is a four-stepped or yondan pattern. All steps at least touch the dorsal line therefore each pattern of hi qualifies as a step.

    You would definitely raise eyebrows at the Sacramento show, I just don't know if that's good or bad!! The competition in the 9-10" or Size 2 also include Size 1 fish competing for the award of "Baby Champion". I have already seen a few fish that will be competing.IT WILL BE STIFF COMPETITION!! May the best kohaku win!!

    No, the pattern does not really "grow" as the fish gets larger. If anything, the pattern "looks" like it gets smaller in some cases due to the fact that the most growth on a koi isn't length alone. It's at the shoulder area. As this increases in volume, the pattern begins to "sit" on top of the fish with more white visible along the sides. This is why young "finished" fish never look balanced and finished at a larger size. The pattern just appears to have become too small for the body. Learning how to look at tosai and nisai and projecting what you hope they will become as they become 4-8 years old or older is the secret to success in enjoying this hobby and your fish for many years to come. I know, everyone's gonna say, "well, you know everybody enjoys the hobby at their own level" Hogwash!!!!! Anyone who really enjoys this hobby learns to appreciate the finer points of raising nishikigoi and one day, they'll walk out to their pond and no longer be satisfied with what they see. They are now developing a "refined eye"and are becoming more attuned to what this hobby is all about - LIVING ART!!!! I may never get to own a Rembrandt or Renoit, but I sure do have some Thomas Kinkades in my collection!! I also have some work done by 3rd graders - anybody interested??!!

    Mike
    Just like on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire," the crowd is unanimously in agreement that Yondan is the pattern. And that's a maruten marking on the koi's face. I'm so glad we got that cleared up. *whew*

    As far as the Sac show goes, I suppose it would be quite the conversation piece, to be sure. Did you happen to notice it also had an exclamation point on it's tail tube?

    Clearly this koi has something to say!

    But do you think the pattern is too distracting to see conformation? One thing I see that I'm not sure I like is the transparency of skin on the koi's head. Sure, it's still a baby, but I've seen whiter shiroji on smaller koi. Think this will improve over time? As far as conformation goes, I'd like to see the koi a little more "buff" in the shoulders, but not musclebound. And I'd like to see a little bigger pectoral fin. The pattern just speaks for itself. *G*

    Speaking of pattern, when I asked if the pattern would "shrink" as the koi matures, I already imagined that the body would grow underneath the hi plates and that the plates would stay the same size, giving the illusion of shrinkage. Thanks for verifying that for me.

    "I know, everyone's gonna say, "well, you know everybody enjoys the hobby at their own level" Hogwash!!!!! Anyone who really enjoys this hobby learns to appreciate the finer points of raising nishikigoi and one day, they'll walk out to their pond and no longer be satisfied with what they see."

    Yep, that's hogwash alrightie. I'm a quick study and I'm already picking my present koi to pieces. I know what I want to see and I know what I should see, and those two points are converging at an alarming rate. I like my showa. She keeps getting better and better. I loved the ochiba shigure that I lost. That koi had a lot of the elements that I considered beauty personified, whose movement was power and poetry in motion. And still, I found fault in her pattern, wishing her gold plates were placed a little more asthetically meandering along her topline instead of unbalanced from side to side and from front to rear. That's the only place I could fault her, the only thing I would have improved in her if given the chance to have bred her.

    Anyway, this "charming" kohaku that I have shown you is probably going to be an inhabitant of my pond (and he shall be named Bob, and he shall be a caricature to be oggled at if nothing else *L*) along with the young nidan kohak I showed off in another thread, plus one other. Any one of them may make the Sac show IF I can get some instruction or assistance on transporting them safely there. Sure, I know I should just attend and watch, but its the only show near enough that I can actually get away to and it only happens once a year. So I intend to jump in and get both feet wet right off the git go.

    Thanks Mike, for your insight and instruction on this koi and how kichi we can get as we grow in this fantastic hobby,

    Marie
    Marie

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    "Every artist dips his brush in his own soul, and
    paints his own nature into his pictures."
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