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Thread: Karasugoi

  1. #11
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I may be moving more quickly through the subject of black Nishikigoi than JR wants, but ....

    The black of most of the Karasugoi I've seen in person has not been the lacquer black of Bekko/Sanke, but a softer black. Rather like a flat black paint compared to a semi-gloss. On an occasion or two I've seen a Matsukawabake that gleamed, but still not at the same level of gloss as in the best Sanke. My experience is limited! ... and photos are not the same as personal observation. We so often think of Sumi as the Bekko/Sanke high gloss type or the less glossy old-Showa type, but I think the gradations are more complex and in the Karasugoi it is different again compared to either Sanke or Showa. ?But maybe not in the really old 1920s forms?

    Comments? Thoughts?

  2. #12
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    That is because the stock you are seeing is from iron magoi and not asagi magoi I suspect? I had a hageshiro that was to DIE for! I'll see if I can find a picture of him. JR

  3. #13
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    this is a wagoi, Mike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karasugoi-karasugoione.jpg  

  4. #14
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    That is an impressive fish. I'm glad you told us that she has scales. ....The Hi is just a bit of a distraction to my eye, but then I prefer Kumonryu over Beni Kumonryu.

    You know, I thought I'd moved past the newbie desire to have one of everything, but when I see koi like that I want one.

  5. #15
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    Mike, about the 'newbie' comment, I have come full circle. There was a time I wanted one of everything, then anything was allowed in my pond as long as it RED & WHITE! LOLs

    And now? I lik'em all again! -

    This fish's beni is a bit distracting but it was SO good overall , I over looked it! I bought this hagashiro from a local Florida dealer by the way! Back in 92. Breeder was Yoshida so it likely came through Joel's place at one point?
    This fish has a strong and mixed genetics! Asagi is present and the white-restriction gene is also present- very unique.
    I lost the fish in 95 from swim bladder malfunction/infection. I've seen swim bladder problems with several karasugoi over the years - one in my friend Ian's pond. Same look, wasting and struggling to stay off the bottom. Not sure if this was unique to the variety or not but have seen it a third and fourth time in kumonryu in other ponds.

    JR

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    JR: The Karasugoi with swim bladder problems... have the ones you've seen all been ones whose black comes and goes with temperature/season changes? (I know you called yours "Hageshiro", but the patterning is also consistent with Matsukawabake.)

  7. #17
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    No, that is fixed pattern fish as was Ian's. The other two were kumonryu and the kumonryu clan is very very mixed up at this point- You will see kumonryu with white skin and kumonryu with blue skin. Very different breedings. Kumonryu is supposed to be a shusui patterned black and white fish. But many kumonryu are really doitsu versions of karasu goi. So IF there was a link it would be from that asagi black koi origin. JR

  8. #18
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    For the lurker, there is a family of black based koi. They are called karasu goi

    The basic fish is KARASU - a black scaled KOI with a red belly

    The HAJIRO is a black scaled koi with white tips on tail and pec fins

    The HAGESHIRO is a black scaled koi with the same white marking as hajiro only in addition- it has a white head.

    The YOTSUSHIRO is a black scaled koi with white points on tail, pecs, head and dorsal.

    The SUMINAGASHI is a black scaled koi with scale reticulated in white ( a vignette pattern)

    The Matsukawabake is a black and white scaled fish where the colors shift or extend seasonally or as it grows.

    The KUMONRYU is a DOITSU black fish where white extends over the body leaving a ‘dragon’ pattern extending up and along the lateral line. Unfortunately in recent times culling practices, and marketing being what it is- all doitsu karasu goi types listed above tend to be called ‘kumonryu’ when they are doitsu.

  9. #19
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The black gene/white gene balance in Karasugoi can be peculiar. I am thinking it may be better called a black/anti-black interaction. I do not know if the anti-black gene acts to prevent formation/stability of the pigment, acts on the melanin to affect its ability to concentrate, or acts on the color cells in the skin to prevent the cells from being able to contain the pigment in concentrated form.

    ...I'm not sure why it should matter to anyone, but melanin is linked to health/cancer/tumor issues in some fish. There were studies long ago linking tumors in Tuxedo Platies and Swordtails to the concentration of melanin in the skin, and solid black morphs of aquaria fish have typically been weaker than their ordinarily colored cousins. This is often attributed to the solid black versions being more highly in-bred, but over 50 years of production there are even more highly in-bred ordinary-colored versions of most of these fish which do not show the same degree of health/robustness issues. I'm thinking that the way the anti-black gene operates may affect whether it creates a health issue. Well, too much rambling thoughts........

    Any way, I'm wondering how it is that Karasugoi tend not to become extra large fish, like a Chagoi, and whether their life spans are shorter on average. JR has observed/learned of swim bladder issues in a number. Is anyone aware of a 10-12 year old Karasugoi? If so, what type? And, was the black a deep, gleaming black or was it more a dark charcoal gray? Was it a "changeable" with the amount of white varying with the season?

  10. #20
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Breeding mutants

    Some interesting stuff. Melanistic mutations are not the result of error in the coding areas on the DNA. This mutation is in the control mechanism portion of DNA. In these (poor) creatures, the pigment production machinery runs over time, creating coal black specimens. They require much more raw material to make pigments such as tyrosine, thus are less fit than normal specimens. And so on but kinda casts a little light on the subject.

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