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Thread: Karasugoi

  1. #51
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    I haven't noticed a tinge to her black. Here is a pic of the red/orange on her mouth. I can't flip her over and take pics, she's too big, but her belly is the same color.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karasugoi-2-23-14-chagoi-red-mouth.jpg  

  2. #52
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Hi Sandy,

    It is common for Karasugoi to have red bellys. I have been taught that the best quality shiny black Karasugoi will have red and avoid yellow or white belles. Very very rare is the Karasugoi with a black belly. BTW when your koi fades to a lighter color it still looks like a nice chagoi. You are lucky - two koi for the price of one!!

  3. #53
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Hi Ray!

    I gifted her to a friend because I can't see her in my pond. She'll probably pick her up in March at the Deep South Show.

    Unless she's standing on right to eat off the surface, you can't see the red belly either.

  4. #54
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    What a change, Sandy.

    I recall being told that Chagoi originated from Dorogoi, the 'muddy carp', which was a wild color form of Magoi. Nishikigoi were derived primarily from Asagi-Magoi. I have read a couple of statements over the years that seem to suggest that Dorogoi were in the genetic mix that lead to Matsukawabake, but between translation issues and vagueness, I'm not sure what was meant. Nonetheless, while Asagi-Magoi is at the root of Nishikigoi, other races of carp have gotten mixed in.... German carp is an example.

    I do not know much of anything about Dorogoi (beyond it being a race of Magoi). There is some thought that it is the Dorogoi base to Chagoi that results in Chagoi (at least many) becoming lighter in cool water, and darker in warm water. A camouflage trait in the native habitat of Dorogoi???

    Do you recall Brady Brandwood's photo of a Magoi he was using in his breeding a decade or so ago? In certain light/shadow and from a distance of several feet, it was black. Viewed up close, the Magoi was not really black. It had much of the brown color characters of Chagoi underlying a dark blackish color cast and hints of orange. I have seen some carp that people said were Magoi that looked like what Brady was using. I've also seen some that were more smoky black without an underlying brown pigment showing much. (Perhaps water temperatures caused a difference??)

    I'm speculating that the genetics that cause the camouflage-like changes in Chagoi according to water temperature, and the coming and going of white/black pigment in Matsukawabake/Kumonryu have gotten into your koi in a different sort of way than we usually see.

    Next Question: When she is in her 'Chagoi Phase', does she still have an orange belly?

  5. #55
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    I haven't noticed a tinge to her black. Here is a pic of the red/orange on her mouth. I can't flip her over and take pics, she's too big, but her belly is the same color.
    I have a few carp x koi hybrids with the same look. As they are black / brown mix, they are not really black sumi as you see in a white bellied karasugoi, where the black pigment can dominate and is concentrated. They a tad darker in colour than rich dark chocolate, with red-brown bellies. I believe they are not a hyper-melanistic form, but a mix of eumelanin and pheomelanin - black, brown and red-brown.

  6. #56
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Bradley, What fun it must be to experiment with such crosses in and within the “isolated” Australian herd. One point to note though is that there is no pheomelanin in fish: only eumelanin.

    I’ve posted this paper before (it is a real thread killer!). A relevant “melanin” reference is on page 2, next to last paragraph: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1890551/pdf/1471-2148-7-74.pdf Rob

  7. #57
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Must have missed the link before, but remember the thread - I am one for the basic - You're not doing it right, if you think you are always right.

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