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Thread: Karasugoi

  1. #1
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Karasugoi

    I came across an interview of Satoru Hoshino in the November 1998 issue of Rinko that included a bit of koi history I thought interesting. Hoshino tells about the Inland Water Fisheries Experimental Station 30 years earlier (late '60s) crossing a male Shusui with a Nezu Ogon Doitsu while researching Nezugoi lineage. A number of wagoi Karasugoi were produced among the offspring. These were distributed among breeders in Niigata. Of course, Karasugoi pre-existed independently. Hoshino comments: "The Karasugoi had already existed before the commencement of blood relationship with Doitsugoi. The lineage starting from Karasugoi of Wagoi through 'Hajiro' and to 'Hageshiro' has been well-known. However, the majority of Karasugoi of today derives from that of the experimental station." These "new" Karasugoi were rather plain with a few being "Hajiro to the degree that it was barely perceptible." The breeders who received these fish worked with them in their breeding and Hoshino states: "Further improvement in this Hajiro brought about the production of Kumonryu subsequent to Hageshiro. It was the breeders left in charge of them by the experimental station that brought the improvement to an end with success. Further improvement in Karasugoi of this lineage ...led to the appearance of Hageshiro and 'Kumonryu'. 'Matsukawabake' is also identified with the kin."

    So why do I find this so interesting? Because Hoshino also observed that Karasugoi had existed prior to World War II, but ... "The postwar Karasugoi, which were different from the prewar Karasugoi, generated 'spontaneously' [at the experimental station]: people had no intention to produce Karasugoi."

    While Hoshino does not describe how these postwar Karasugoi differed, he is quite clear in his view that the Karasugoi commonly produced derive from this experiment and not the prewar lineage (which may have been largely decimated during the war years?).

    We think of black koi as being the archaic genetics of centuries ago, but if Hoshino is correct in his belief, the black koi of today's hobby are a modern fish directly linked to doitsu and Shusui (and thereby Asagi). Yes, it is a sort of "throwback"...atavism at work, perhaps. But, a different gene pool. When next you see a modern Hageshiro or Matsukawabake, perhaps you will appreciate what it represents on a different level, and gain in your respect for the accomplishments of those mountain farmers.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Pretty interesting stuff. Thanks Mike.

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    Jumbo Regenmeneer's Avatar
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    Very interesting indeed. This might also explain why there was a Matsukawabake of old and a new version.

    Here are the pics of my Karasu.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karasugoi-karasu.jpg   Karasugoi-upd4.jpg  

  4. #4
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    well mike what do you think about the photos...that crow had a red belly like
    shusui....this version very popular in china. The crow japan likes is white bellied.
    the koi in the photo has a classic body, put a 3 step kohaku pattern on that body and you have florida's newest GC! makes you appreciate Toshio Sakai's
    forsigtedness....

  5. #5
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Regenmeneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Regenmeneer
    Here are the pics of my Karasu.
    Beautiful. Thank you for sharing!

  6. #6
    Tategoi
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    we did this over on one of the other boards a few weeks/months ago- did you see that thread Mike? ( I think we begain talking about kumonryu and I brought the conversation down to karasu and magoi).

    The three magoi foundation stock are what thru off the first black KOI ( not black carp). The red bellied black koi is of asagi magoi but not a black carp. That 'spot' is already taken by a black carp MAGOI!

    The next step is a white gene that slowly moved OVER the black koi's body to form dorsal patterns.
    You guy's article then takes it from there as these elements were already IN the breeding stock's gene pool by then.
    Best, JR

  7. #7
    Jumbo Regenmeneer's Avatar
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    No thanks Don!

    I like the body on this one, especially the Ozutsu. I bought this one in 2001 as tosai at 5", so it did quite well.

    Some people think it's a magoi, but it's black as night, has no darker edges of the scales and does have this orange/red belly. Reasoning why, according to them, it could not be Karasu is that the belly is not firy red.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Reg: Thanks for posting that one. Like Dick said, a fine body. The strength of such a fish can be appreciated even if she is "just" black (and orange ).

    Dick: My first thought was that the Asagi/Shusui red belly was showing! I'm guessing that in time the upper black scales, when viewed in angled sunlight, will have a reddish cast to them. I had a "crow" with that reddish under color once, but far too like a food fish in shape to keep. She went to other pastures long ago.

    JR: I missed that thread, but I'll look for it. The idea that black carp are not black Nishikigoi is an important one. ...But I'll not try to define the boundary between carp and koi!

  9. #9
    Tategoi
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    I'll 'import' a bit of the thread--- JR

  10. #10
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    Can't find the DANG posts among the threads over there! So let me set some ground work for the conversation ( Reg, excellent photos to illustrate the point)


    There are magoi- these are common carp of the wild type. They come in colors based on their isolated gene pools- black ( magoi) , blue/gray ( magoi and 'iron' magoi) and brown/muddy yellow ( 'mud' magoi).

    There are also black koi. The most primitive being one with a red belly. The more evolved black koi is the one that possessess a mutant white gene. If you study the karasu clan you will notice they are get different names based on how much the white gene has spread over the black base ( leaving the 'pattern' in it's wake/spreading).

    JR

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