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Thread: Showa Questions

  1. #11
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Thanks you guys!

    I was so hoping to hear that from you, because in 2-3 or even 4 years she's going to have really good size, and that's a good time to finish, is it not?

    Okay, more Showa questions:

    When I got Shiia, she was 5" long and just coming out of her overall black baby shading (or fear camoflage, if young koi do this). In a matter of days after putting her and Blurt in the QT, all the black shading was gone and the hi plates were able to be seen in their entirety. In the two months that I've had her, she's grown over 3". When I put her in the pond a month ago, the first 2-3 days the sumi started to lift and she got very dark in patches, though not as overall dark as she was in the beginning. Then, voila! She dumped the sumi again all in one day.

    I am theorizing that when she was stressed, her energy left the idea of growth behind and the sumi started growing when the energy burst of growth went into cessation. Any thoughts on this?

    But the main question I have from this tangent is, what kind of growing curve do Showas go through? Do they grow hell-bent for leather in the beginning then slow down when they reach a certain level of maturity? What is the growth pattern like, and is it different from other varieties of koi, and is it different from bloodline to bloodline or koi to koi?

    Marie
    Marie

    http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/koi-gr...wout-form.html

    "Every artist dips his brush in his own soul, and
    paints his own nature into his pictures."
    --Henry Ward Beecher

  2. #12
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Marie

    Your showa has AT LEAST 2-3 years to go. One thing I've found - NEVER rush a showa into the competition ring. It will tell you when it's ready.

    To answer your last question, all varieties have differing growth patterns. Different bloodlines have different growth patterns and individual fish have different growth patterns. Each and every fish is different in it's make-up and what genetic link it has to the parents. It could even show a whole different look of the grandparents. Genes don't get handed down in even lots like we would like but then again this hobby would become boring too quickly!!

    Mike

  3. #13
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koiczar
    Marie

    Your showa has AT LEAST 2-3 years to go. One thing I've found - NEVER rush a showa into the competition ring. It will tell you when it's ready.

    To answer your last question, all varieties have differing growth patterns. Different bloodlines have different growth patterns and individual fish have different growth patterns. Each and every fish is different in it's make-up and what genetic link it has to the parents. It could even show a whole different look of the grandparents. Genes don't get handed down in even lots like we would like but then again this hobby would become boring too quickly!!

    Mike
    Thanks Mike. Don't worry, I'm not about to rush her. *S* I am beginning to understand that the koi being shown in the smaller groups have got to have a grown-up finish, not simply "show promise." That's fine with me. I am a patient soul.

    I realize the genetics of koi are complex and there is a lot of variation in a single spawn of even identical fish. I'm sure that finding a complementary breeding pair that clicks and produces a larger percentage of offspring that follow their type (or the type one is trying to create from the breeding) is a real challenge. That is what fascinates me. From fry to finished, I want to watch the progression and learn to recognize the needs of the koi I am helping to grow out so I can provide those needs at the right time and in the right measure. Showa are special--they are what I've heard as being called "the untamed koi", the one that resists domestication and standardization.

    But even the untamed ones have their own specialized needs, and this is what I seek to know in order to aid this koi in becoming all that she can be. Bummer to not have access to her breeder, whom one would think could tell me from personal experience with the bloodlines she comes from what I want and need to know...

    Marie

  4. #14
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Different growth patterns, different finishing rates, differences at different ages as well.

    If you have read Maurice's forum recently, he has shown differences even between siblings.


    BB

  5. #15
    Jumbo dcny's Avatar
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    A few more things to keep in mind. Temper your expectations around growth. Generally gin rin fish do not grow to be jumbo koi. You're gonna get good growth the first couple of years but they will peak out before your other koi will. The second thing is remember that since these are gin rin fish they will compete in the gin rin class. The quality of the gin rin will be the primary factor in determining how well this fish show. Which brings us back to the first point, don't force any growth with this fish. In order for the fish to maintain the gin rin quality as much as possible, slow and steady is better than big growth spurts.

    BTW, your profile says you're from Northern California. Where abouts? If you're in the area, maybe you would like to come to one of the ZNA NorCal meetings. Over half the members of our club are also members here on Bito.

    -Dan

  6. #16
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley
    Different growth patterns, different finishing rates, differences at different ages as well.

    If you have read Maurice's forum recently, he has shown differences even between siblings.


    BB
    *smile* Perhaps if I knew who Maurice is I might be able to read his forum...

    I have no doubts that there are differences between siblings; I don't expect all siblings to look like they came out of a cookie-cutter mold. But one would think that some fry displaying the same dominant genetics would develop in the same or similar way, given that their genetic makeup would be very close or identical to each other. Can't expect a gazillion fry to have that narrow a genetic code stamped on all of them. But some will, and those familiar with that (like the breeder that has worked the bloodlines to produce it and watched it as it matures, for instance), will have a pretty good idea of how it will develop and what it needs at every stage of its development. Without this knowledge, we muddle through and do the best we can do with what we have. I guess that's what I'm going to have to do. Like the song, "Life's A Dance", I'll learn as I go....

    Cheers,

    Marie

  7. #17
    Jumbo dcny's Avatar
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    Marie, BB is referring to Maurice Cox. His website is http://www.koi-uk.co.uk/. In the last few years he has become one of finest breeders in the UK. He also came up with the static media mechanical filtration idea before many of us knew what it was. He has quite a few sections on his website about his early breeding efforts in the General Info section. All of it is very worthwhile reading.

    -Dan

  8. #18
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Smile Thanks Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by dcny
    A few more things to keep in mind. Temper your expectations around growth. Generally gin rin fish do not grow to be jumbo koi. You're gonna get good growth the first couple of years but they will peak out before your other koi will. The second thing is remember that since these are gin rin fish they will compete in the gin rin class. The quality of the gin rin will be the primary factor in determining how well this fish show. Which brings us back to the first point, don't force any growth with this fish. In order for the fish to maintain the gin rin quality as much as possible, slow and steady is better than big growth spurts.

    BTW, your profile says you're from Northern California. Where abouts? If you're in the area, maybe you would like to come to one of the ZNA NorCal meetings. Over half the members of our club are also members here on Bito.

    -Dan
    I have read that the ginrins will develop slower and won't get as large as others of its variety that aren't ginrin. My two ochibas (one ginrin, the other not) from what I suspect was the same spawn demonstrated exactly what you're saying. The non-ginrin grew considerably faster than the ginrin, who is still developing slowly in comparison.

    Thank you, Dan! Valuable knowledge in your post, because it gives me a peek at what to expect and some kind of idea of how to proceed in helping maintain the quality of the ginrin during the grow out process--an additional parameter in an already complex subject.

    Which is going to propel me into my next question: What dietary needs do ginrin koi have that is different from, for lack of a better word, ordinary koi?

    Marie

  9. #19
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcny
    Marie, BB is referring to Maurice Cox. His website is http://www.koi-uk.co.uk/. In the last few years he has become one of finest breeders in the UK. He also came up with the static media mechanical filtration idea before many of us knew what it was. He has quite a few sections on his website about his early breeding efforts in the General Info section. All of it is very worthwhile reading.

    -Dan
    I'm as good as there, Dan. Thanks for the link.

    Marie

  10. #20
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Shiia's putting on more sumi like it's going out of style now. I am constantly amazed at how quickly she can change (and change back again!) Here's a pic taken yesterday:




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