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Thread: Back in the Land of the rising sun!

  1. #21
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    [quote=Russell Peters;63398]
    Quote Originally Posted by koinut View Post

    Breeders are not guessing when they pick out their tategoi. They pick the best quality to grow out. That does not mean they won't get a Shiro Muji from time to time. Toshio Sakai has the ability to tell you the future of any Koi you put in front of him. It takes a split second. No guessing.
    I would have to disagree with that. I went to a breeders place that told me a particular tosai pond was all tategoi, but not all will turn out as they had hoped. Upon inspection of the "tategoi" pond, many of them were no longer tategoi due to whatever reason. Some lose their color, some don't grow the way they hoped, some turn out to be Osu, and so on. I'm sure they have a very good understanding of their own koi, but nothing is 100%. Not only do they have to deal with good genetics, but also other elements as well. Water quality, food, mud pond, birds of prey, other animals diseases, unforseen deformaties and on and on. The other question would be, in whos care would the koi be placed in. Will that owner be able to house the koi in such a way that the breeder deems necessary to be able to thrive and never ever get sick? There are just too many factors in a tategoi. If all tategoi turned out to be what they were, then I truly believe that they would not use the word tategoi (potential). JMHO

    Rob

  2. #22
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    Lots of nice koi today. I'll try to update more of what I saw today. The places we went to were Marudo, Torazo, Miyaishi, Jirosuke, Otsuka, and Ushizo (Shinoda). Each place seemed to be full of koi, but many were sold as well. At Marudos place, Hisashis son was arriving with the gosai! Otsuka has some very nice unusual koi as well. His Goshiki tancho sanke are absolutely stunning. Check out his kohaku! Not too shabby!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Back in the Land of the rising sun!-marudo-gosai-1.jpg   Back in the Land of the rising sun!-marudo-gosai-2.jpg   Back in the Land of the rising sun!-marudo-gosai-3.jpg  

  3. #23
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    Forgot the pic of the Otsuka Kohaku.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Back in the Land of the rising sun!-otsuka-kohaku.jpg   Back in the Land of the rising sun!-miyaiishi.jpg   Back in the Land of the rising sun!-miyaiishi-1.jpg   Back in the Land of the rising sun!-miyaiishi-2.jpg   Back in the Land of the rising sun!-miyaiishi-3.jpg  

    Back in the Land of the rising sun!-niigata-sign.jpg  

  4. #24
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koinut View Post
    Forgot the pic of the Otsuka Kohaku.
    Reminds me of a famous Kohak, that past away recently.

  5. #25
    Honmei
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    [quote=koinut;63429]
    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post

    I would have to disagree with that. I went to a breeders place that told me a particular tosai pond was all tategoi, but not all will turn out as they had hoped. Upon inspection of the "tategoi" pond, many of them were no longer tategoi due to whatever reason. Some lose their color, some don't grow the way they hoped, some turn out to be Osu, and so on. I'm sure they have a very good understanding of their own koi, but nothing is 100%. Not only do they have to deal with good genetics, but also other elements as well. Water quality, food, mud pond, birds of prey, other animals diseases, unforseen deformaties and on and on. The other question would be, in whos care would the koi be placed in. Will that owner be able to house the koi in such a way that the breeder deems necessary to be able to thrive and never ever get sick? There are just too many factors in a tategoi. If all tategoi turned out to be what they were, then I truly believe that they would not use the word tategoi (potential). JMHO

    Rob
    Rob,

    If it is a tategoi, then the only person that could care for it is the breeder. Once it leaves the breeders care it is NO LONGER a tategoi. I know that dealers like to convince buyers that they have tategoi, but it is a sales ploy. Tateshita is the best anyone can do once it leaves Japan. Tategoi is an abused term. The idea for potential is a good one. I beleive it is the responsibility of the dealer to teach customers about Koi that have potential, but no one but a breeder has Tategoi.
    I just found out your broker is Kaz Takeda, say Hi for us. We saw him at the Las Vegas show.

  6. #26
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    [quote=Russell Peters;63449]
    Quote Originally Posted by koinut View Post

    Rob,

    If it is a tategoi, then the only person that could care for it is the breeder. Once it leaves the breeders care it is NO LONGER a tategoi. I know that dealers like to convince buyers that they have tategoi, but it is a sales ploy. Tateshita is the best anyone can do once it leaves Japan. Tategoi is an abused term. The idea for potential is a good one. I beleive it is the responsibility of the dealer to teach customers about Koi that have potential, but no one but a breeder has Tategoi.
    I just found out your broker is Kaz Takeda, say Hi for us. We saw him at the Las Vegas show.
    Russ,

    Yes, Kaz is my broker for Niigata. I will let him know that you say hello.
    As for tategoi, I do know that the word is abused in the west, but I also believe that only the specific breeders know more about their koi than any one else as far as developement but is still not 100% certain of the outcome. So does that also mean that if a hobbyist purchases a said tategoi and leaves it in the care of the breeder, that the koi will turn out as expected? Is the koi no longer tategoi onece it's purchased and left another year? Are there no tategoi that after a year in the mud and comes out not too good still tategoi? So the koi that Momotaro purchased from Toshio Sakai no longer was tategoi, yet Momotaro raised numerous grand champions from other breeders? I suppose our differing opinions on tategoi will be a never ending question. JMHO.

    Rob

  7. #27
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori View Post
    Reminds me of a famous Kohak, that past away recently.
    That's what it remined me of also.

  8. #28
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    About the Tategoi thing, How are we supposed to get Nishikigoi that will become champs then?

  9. #29
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilhelper View Post
    About the Tategoi thing, How are we supposed to get Nishikigoi that will become champs then?
    It depends as to what degree of championship fish you are looking for. For All Japan purposes, very very deep pockets would be the key. As for local shows, it depends on what you're trying to attain. Small fish, you can probably even find in the bargain basement koi. Hope that helps a lil.

  10. #30
    Jumbo koinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilhelper View Post
    About the Tategoi thing, How are we supposed to get Nishikigoi that will become champs then?
    Lil,

    We also have one of the best koi guys out of Japan living near you. His name is Grant Fujita. Whenever you get a chance to meet him, you may want to pick his brain. He's mentored so many from this forum that are very knowledgeable.

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