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Thread: Learning Nishikigoi

  1. #1
    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    *edit by mod* These posts were pulled out of another thread that went way off topic. By popular demand I pulled these out and turned them into a new topic. If some posts in this thread dont quite make sense...well nobodies perfect

    The teaching during judging was especially good. He asked each of the assistant judges questions, without giving away what he thought about the particular fish or class we were looking at. It often seemed that he was probing us for the depth of our understanding. Our koi knowledge. Then his "lessons", or what he talked to us about seemed pointed towards helping us each get to the "next level". Different than judging with some other Japanese judges I have judged with, where there was not much discussion or consideration. He very much respected our opinion, even to the point of asking more questions to understand what we thought we saw, and in several occasions, changed his mind based on going back and looking at the koi again. Larry Gill had alot to do with that with his thoughtful questions. Unusual for a Japanese judge, but very much Mr Sakai. Felt like we were discussing koi over tea again in Isawa or Niigata. These things are why he has been my favorite breeder for 10 years.

    The Lecture focused on how he looks at koi and how to tell good and bad beni apart. Fukurin was a stepping stone, but not the focus. Mostly assumed the people there understood that and had a reasonably high level of koi general "understanding", and also of his koi. He also showed examples of his "new" kohaku, sanke, and showa over time. 4 season feeding and care, but more in depth than the web site, or other talks I have heard that he has given. How to 'repair' some of the things we saw in the koi in the show. he is in favor of 4 times the O2 in the summer 3-4 months of heavy feeding compared to winter. Movement of the water more by the airstones than the traditional "jets". Not as much worry about 'quiet spots" as the koi "know" where to go. More, but this is just off the top of my head. I videotaped the lecture, and need to watch it some to see what I missed. So I will update over the next week or so as I watch the video, and hopefully talk to Mr Sakai for some clarification. If any want more info.

    Hope that helped clarify some.
    Best regards,

    Bob Winkler

    My opinions are my best interpretation of my experiences. They are not set in stone as I intend to always be a student of life. And Koi.


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    Yes please do!!!!
    There are somethings I kind of understood like the saw edge of the Hi.
    What does that mean?

  3. #3
    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    Kiwa is the razor sharp edge he talked about,He gave an several examples of. There was the "straight edge" type which crosses scales. The "typical" Kiwa one hears about. "Marusome Kiwa" is the "scalloped" type he showed in which the hi follows the scales, and Sashi is the "blurred" edges. He talked about how you dont want the razor sharp kiwa when the koi is young. Not just on the leading edge, but also the trailing edge. That is different than I have heard sometimes b4.

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    What about the Breaking up of the Hi, and the Phase in which koi settle down to different water chemistry.
    He did say to salt the koi for a week if I am correct, also he said to keep the pond at a constand .5%-.8% right??? during this period for 6-8 months.

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    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilhelper View Post
    What about the Breaking up of the Hi, and the Phase in which koi settle down to different water chemistry.
    He did say to salt the koi for a week if I am correct, also he said to keep the pond at a constand .5%-.8% right??? during this period for 6-8 months.

    Keeping the newly arrived koi as above is not how I heard it, nor necessarily what he recommended, but I believe he was saying that what some people do is keep them in salt in the beginning...So you had that part correct, but there was much more to it than just that.

    I think I heard Mr Sakai say that during quarantine, and sometimes during that acclimation period, the beni can come and go. Due to the stress of the trip and new water. I am sure Russ and/or Kari can clarify what they do at his direction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Winkler View Post
    Keeping the newly arrived koi as above is not how I heard it, nor necessarily what he recommended, but I believe he was saying that what some people do is keep them in salt in the beginning...So you had that part correct, but there was much more to it than just that.

    I think I heard Mr Sakai say that during quarantine, and sometimes during that acclimation period, the beni can come and go. Due to the stress of the trip and new water. I am sure Russ and/or Kari can clarify what they do at his direction
    Hmmm, Sakai-san Knows alot about koi, but how much????

  7. #7
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilhelper View Post
    Hmmm, Sakai-san Knows alot about koi, but how much????
    Sakai knows too much...I think he was holding back when he was giving his lecture...

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    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Bob A-thanks for the explaination of what happened with Quality Koi and sakai-san......

    Lilhelper...just as Bob W explained in his initial explaination about sakai-san
    finding out where his students are....that is his great method of teaching. he can then move you forward from there....This man wrote the book so to speak on many aspects of koi development and still is, so no matter how much or how fast you learn you can never keep up with this man as he's always steps ahead of the competition.

    just this afternoon I went back into my notes from a decade ago from one of his lessons and was able to grasp things that at the time was over my head
    but now i know (something that was 10 years old) can you imagine what he has learned since? great hobby, you'll always be challenged!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    Bob A-thanks for the explaination of what happened with Quality Koi and sakai-san......

    Lilhelper...just as Bob W explained in his initial explaination about sakai-san
    finding out where his students are....that is his great method of teaching. he can then move you forward from there....This man wrote the book so to speak on many aspects of koi development and still is, so no matter how much or how fast you learn you can never keep up with this man as he's always steps ahead of the competition.

    just this afternoon I went back into my notes from a decade ago from one of his lessons and was able to grasp things that at the time was over my head
    but now i know (something that was 10 years old) can you imagine what he has learned since? great hobby, you'll always be challenged!

    Notes???? Hmm I need to take notes, but where to start????????

    I somehow agree alot, and somehow I dont. I believe it is possible to venture in different areas where sakai is not, but where is he not???

    I do agree that no one can really ever know what this man knows. But I think its the fact that really no one really knows what he knows and does not know, so no one can actually know if they know something that he doesnt know.

    but who exactly am I again???

    I think its hard to understand that, my brain hurts..


    Can you teach me as an extention of sakai-san??? I want to learn as much as my 95% empty brain can hold, since we only use like..what 5%???

    I want to learn as much as I can about showa, no everything, but start out at showa.
    They have always fascinated me.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    at the beginning, grasshoppa

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