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Thread: Matching price with quality.

  1. #41
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    Ok...so which koi are imported and which are domestic??? There are 2 japanese utsuri and 3 american. There are 2 japanese goshiki and 1 domestic. Lets see who can tell.....so whatcha think?!?!?!
    It is a funny thing you are asking this, because you cant really tell. At that size you cant tell...I think US Domestic Koi will only be respected when they start winning GC at a koi. The only problem I have is Domestic Koi being sold as Japanese Koi. But honestly, I still dont think US Domestic Koi should fetch the same price as a Japanese.

  2. #42
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    Ok...so which koi are imported and which are domestic??? There are 2 japanese utsuri and 3 american. There are 2 japanese goshiki and 1 domestic. Lets see who can tell.....so whatcha think?!?!?!
    Okay, I'll be the first sucker to post my guesses

    Koromo - #1 and #3 are imports

    Utsuri - #2 and #5 are imports

    Mike

  3. #43
    Nisai xiaohuang7's Avatar
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    i'll take a guess at the shiros... 1, 3 and 4 are US

    Last edited by xiaohuang7; 11-01-2006 at 05:50 AM. Reason: hey mike, i didn't look at your guesses!

  4. #44
    Daihonmei
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    This is a fun contest so I won't interrupt it, but aquitori's comment is true, it is most hard to tell at small sizes UNLESS the 'spread' is real. Meaning, if you take the best US bred and compare to the best Japanese bred - it is easy. If you take Japanese production fish ( tateshita) and compare them to better domestics ( especially male fish) - you will be hard pressed to tell.
    The true 'proof' is in the pudding! In the case of HIGH CLASS nishikigoi, the true test is with age. As US domestics grow, they tend to fall by the wayside. The ultimate size, the body comformation, the intensity of color and qualities of the skin don't seem to be able to hang in.
    If the very good high class Japanese fish represents 2% ( annually) total ichibi mono production ( 500,000 good tosai fish producing 10,000 very good nisai/sansai fish) and then by age yonsai, this number is reduced to 200 super fish, the truth of the level of accomplishment for that effort is revealed.
    In otherwords, the proof of the 'genetic pudding', the culling practices and grow out conditions is ultimately revealed by the number and look of adult high class nishikigoi. And that percentage is low. Basically, two percent of two percent and then two percent of that number!
    In America, we are zeroing in on select domestic pieces- And typically two or three year old select pieces. And some ARE impressive. Especially compared to what domestics looked like ten years ago. These results should be very encouraging. But we should not jump to conclusions too quickly as we have NOT yet seen an adult American bred koi that can even begin to compete with the better yonsai and gosai of Japan. Top 2% of production- Japan still rules- hands down.
    Its always been a numbers game. 1400 breeders spawning an average of 1 million fry each, is 1,400,000 fry! And this is a very conservative number! In the end, this is 560,000 sellable fish! And potentially 11,000 high class yonsai to pick from!! Now I'd rather be 'lucky' than gifted, but does anyone really think that with American producers ( 6- 8 higher quality breeders in all of America) producing say 3 million fry and keeping the same ratio with limited culling ability and limited gene pools can produce the same results? Doing the same math and giving the American breeders the same benefit of outcome, the number of possible high class yonsai is ----------- 24!

    So if the 'game' is to produce Grand Champions ( definition: large four year old plus gosanke) Then the 'potential' score is
    Japan - 11,000
    USA - 24

    These odds will require both luck and circumstance to overcome.

    JR

  5. #45
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The middle Goshiki appears to have a heavier dose of Soragoi than Asagi. Still Goshiki under current labels, but not really the same. The Goshiki label covers such a range of fish with different genetics. None of these are high quality, but attractive for now.

    If the #5 Shiro Utsuri is not Japanese-bred, the breeder should stand up and take a bow.

  6. #46
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Exclamation Now there's a reality check for you

    JR's post kinda puts things in perspective (talk about long odds )
    At the same time, in light of the progress being made by some of the domestic breeders they should be encouraged. The San Antonio Show results demonstrate real achievement among domestics through size 6, which is pretty impressive. Give a Standing O to those few.
    As to guessing which of the Goshiki or Utsuri came from where goes???, I'll pass. I think Tony and JR pretty well nailed down the reasons why.
    I really think price/value/quality considerations are concerned, I think different people purchase for different reasons, which messes with the value curve. Many people purchase for the "instant gratification" which usually translates into too much money paid for today's Prom Queen (more likely a prom king who cross dresses ). Premium price for fading beauty.
    Others value Koi more like an investment portfolio and pay for potential down the road. Delayed gratification can be a beautiful thing.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  7. #47
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    Ok...so which koi are imported and which are domestic??? There are 2 japanese utsuri and 3 american. There are 2 japanese goshiki and 1 domestic. Lets see who can tell.....so whatcha think?!?!?!
    Goshiki:
    1) Japanese
    2) American
    3)Japanese

    Utsuri:
    1)American
    2)American
    3)Japanese
    4)American
    5)Japanese




    Marie


  8. #48
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    Ok...so which koi are imported and which are domestic??? There are 2 japanese utsuri and 3 american. There are 2 japanese goshiki and 1 domestic. Lets see who can tell.....so whatcha think?!?!?!
    Goshiki
    1. Japanese
    2. Domestic
    3. Japanese

    Utsuri
    1. Domestic
    2. Japanese
    3. Domestic
    4. Domestic
    5. Japanese
    Koi-Unit
    My personal koi page Updated 7/8/07
    ZNA Potomac Koi Club

  9. #49
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Ok...utsuri 2 and 5 are from marusho farm-Japan. 1,3,4 are from blackwater creek Goshiki 1 is from Genjiro, goshiki2 is blackwater creek, goshiki 3 is from Hiroi. Three has really improved...more of that asagi scalation has come out to darken her. The utsuri are 6-9 inches and the goshiki are 12inches. The blackwater creek utsuri are from sekko parents( I am told). Thanks for playing!!!
    unfortunately...a heron killed goshiki 2...Pecked a hole in her head and made away with 5 koi...dammit!!!

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