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Thread: Russell Water Gardens and Kodama Koi Farm Pair Up /Merged Thread

  1. #201
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Mr. Russell . . .

    I see that you're back with your slick merchandising mantra: Can't we all just get along, hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya (while you'se guys help me improve my marketing plan)?

    Meet you in the middle and help you figure out how to clean your pond rocks? Good grief!

    Dude, you sound like a total dork asking us to help you build a better propeller for your biplane when we all live in the age of supersonic transport. Ain't gonna happen.

    Bill is absolutely correct. We build ponds (or seek to) that will optimize our koi while you build ponds to maximize your market share. You should realize by now that for us meeting in the middle is, like, going over to the dark side, fer shure?

    Even though you ducked my question about your definition of a koi pond and Kodama-san, I kind of like you (in a depressing sort of way). Therefore, I solve your rock cleaning problem. Gratis.

    First, dredge all the rock and gravel from the pond.
    Second, tumble it in a cement mixer using a slurry of silica sand and bleach.
    Third, rinse, then dry in the sun.
    Finally, load it, haul it to the landfill and dump it.

    Now wasn't that easy?
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  2. #202
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    I see that you're back with your slick merchandising mantra: Can't we all just get along, hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya (while you'se guys help me improve my marketing plan)?

    Meet you in the middle and help you figure out how to clean your pond rocks? Good grief!

    Dude, you sound like a total dork asking us to help you build a better propeller for your biplane when we all live in the age of supersonic transport. Ain't gonna happen.

    Bill is absolutely correct. We build ponds (or seek to) that will optimize our koi while you build ponds to maximize your market share. You should realize by now that for us meeting in the middle is, like, going over to the dark side, fer shure?

    Even though you ducked my question about your definition of a koi pond and Kodama-san, I kind of like you (in a depressing sort of way). Therefore, I solve your rock cleaning problem. Gratis.

    First, dredge all the rock and gravel from the pond.
    Second, tumble it in a cement mixer using a slurry of silica sand and bleach.
    Third, rinse, then dry in the sun.
    Finally, load it, haul it to the landfill and dump it.

    Now wasn't that easy?
    Sounds about right, can't we just end this thread!!!!!!!

    It is just 21 pages of talking till your blue in the face, give it up.

  3. #203
    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    You're right Russ, there does not appear to be any middle ground when it comes to rocks. However, I hope that an opportunity for serious koi keepers to influence the design of mass-marketed koi ponds is not going to be missed.

    Also, you can think what you want about RWG ponds, but you have to admit that John Russell (the person) has shown a lot of courage and restraint. The IPPCA folks had that part correct.

    -steveho pki

  4. #204
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekko View Post
    You're right Russ, there does not appear to be any middle ground when it comes to rocks. However, I hope that an opportunity for serious koi keepers to influence the design of mass-marketed koi ponds is not going to be missed.

    Also, you can think what you want about RWG ponds, but you have to admit that John Russell (the person) has shown a lot of courage and restraint. The IPPCA folks had that part correct.

    -steveho pki
    I am very impressed with the way John Russell has handled the situation but I just don't see the point of arguing and going over the same issues time and time again.

  5. #205
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    Ok, so instead of arguing the points over and over again, maybe we can make some suggestions that will aid both .... the kichi and the water garden folks. There just might be a solution out there that both can be happy with. Won't know unless you try right?

    OK, so what is it about the "water garden" style pond that is so desireable to the new pond keeper? Is it the natural look? That's my guess. Folks start out by simply wanting a pretty water feature in their landscape. That's how I started. It isn't until later that we find koi and then we realize what we've created isn't right for their optimum growth and health. Russel is trying to come up with some sort of middle ground. I can't fault him for that. But his approach might not be the right one. What if you incorporated all the good and necessary construction and filter technologies but excluded the LOOSE rocks inside the pond. It can be done you know if all you're looking for is the "natural look" in a pond along with good solid filtration designs. Why doesn't someone come up with a way you can have the "look" of the rocked bottom pond, without the loose rocks. Maybe a cement formed bottom with rocks placed in that? Maybe a liner that gives the look of rocks inside the pond? Heck, I don't have the exact answer and I doubt anyone has researched the approach. Maybe someone needs to design such a thing. But if we put our heads together, maybe we can come up with a reasonable cost effective way to do this. This would solve the issue of gunk getting caught in and around rocks. It would eleminate the "fluffing" of rocks 'cause there wouldn't be any. This would take care of the issue about rocks getting into a bottom drain.

    Here is the downside though. If someone were to come up with such a thing, the nice algae carpet, which we all encourage in our koi ponds, would eventually over grow the "look" of the rocks.....so where does that leave us? Back to the bare liner pond perhaps?

    Anyway, I don't fault this approach. It's one step toward a solution, but not necessarily the whole solution when marketing to an uneducated public. Anything that trys to bring the two "sides" together, I'm all for AS LONG AS THE CONTRACTOR IS HONEST ABOUT WHAT KOI REALLY NEED TO THRIVE, NOT JUST SURVIVE.

    If you had a new puppy, you would want to provide the best world for that puppy as it grew. The same is true for our koi.

    So Steve C, if you are willing to work with this project, I can only see good things resulting from it. Teach, as you do so well my friend!!

  6. #206
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Russ and Steve

    You guys are right!! There really is NO MIDDLE GROUND!! I read the posts on the IPPCA board - They have valid points from the R & G side of things and you're not going to change their minds just like they're not going to change ours. They have a different purpose in the hobby and it doesn't include high quality koi. They're the ones who keep the Pet chains and domestic breeders in business. I've cleaned more than my share of these cesspools they call "koi ponds". RWG can market things with a new twist if he wants - results are still the same - unless the owner understands what maintenance is involved and doesnt mind needing back surgery in a few years. People are in this hobby for differing reasons. Those on this board share a common purpose - to enjoy the beautiful living works of art that have been created in it's highest form. You can hang a new age artist's piece in any room of your home - but if you collect Monet or DaVinci would you hang that in your bathroom? Let's suffice to say "WE AGREE TO DISAGREE" on this matter and end it. It's a no win situation. Too bad too, 'cuz people are still not going to end up getting what they thought they were going to get in the end - so, folks, bend over and buyer beware!!!!!!!!!

  7. #207
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    My final post on this thread (I hope) . . .

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

    — upton sinclair

  8. #208
    Nisai
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    Thank you everyone

    Hello everyone.

    Thank you all so much for your thoughts and comments. Auntiesue is right on target.....thinking of ways to improve something is the right way to go about things. Simply wishing that something you disagree with will go away will get you nowhere. Thank you for thoughts and ideas Auntiesue. You're thinking outside the box.

    Don, you are very passionate, and your posts are highly entertaining - I enjoy them immensly. I can't wait to meet you in person so that you can harrang me face to face. I would like to see your pond - lets have a glass of ice tea pond-side and you can tell me exactly what you define as a koi pond - and I will take notes and try to learn as much as I can from you. I've told you my thoughts on what a koi pond is, but if I'm wrong, I want to know. I can't learn from you if you simply tell me I'm wrong without showing me how and why I'm wrong.

    Agree to disagree. I agree. No one is expecting KB'ers to change their minds. No one is expecting to change water gardeners minds either. At both sides there are extremes - but, contrary to Koiczar's comment, there realy is a great big "middle". I appreciate your opinion that there is no "middle" - and from your perspective you are correct. But from where I'm sitting, the water gardeners perspective believe they are correct in their opinions also. The simply truth is that most people don't care about the rock & gravel arguement. They just want a pretty pond with koi in it. Rocks and plants in it make it part of the overall landscape. That is the majority, and that is the middle - like it or not, it is the truth.

    Think of this. There are probably thousands of ponds in this country that meet with KB'ers standards. But there are probabley hundreds of thousands of ponds that don't meet with KB'ers standards. What can be done to improve a KB'ers pond? Not much. What can be done to improve the rest of them? Many things. Getting rid of them is an unreasonalbe request, and turning them all into KB approved ponds is not likely to ever happen. So how does a reasonable person expect to improve the hundreds of thousands of non-KB'er approved ponds? This is the perspective that I'm coming from.

    Russell, I'll look you up when I'm down your way sometime next year. The same with Bill. Show me your ponds and your stores. Teach me your philosopies. Show me what products you sell, and tell me why you sell and/or install them. Tell me your vission of the future. If you play golf - lets play a round. Koiczar, I don't know where you are located, but my hand is extended out to you as well.


    No one is trying to change anyone's minds here. I'm personaly learning as much as I can from both sides of the isle for the benefit of our the customers in our stores. I welcome all of you to come to our Flagship Store as Dick Benbow has - and as we expand across the nation, you are welcome to come into each of our stores. Feel free to tell me what you like, and most important - tell me what you don't like so that we may improve.

    Thank you again everyone. I enjoy the passionate conversation.
    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    CEO Russell Watergardens

    p.s. Don, everyone has to make a living. You all know what I do for a living - in fact I'm at work right now. What do you do (or what did you do if you're retired) to earning your living and pay your mortage payment?

    p.s.s. My salary depends on me understanding and being well informed. That is why I'm here - to broaden my data base of information and education. People and companies that profit from NOT understanding - don't have the courage to post here and are noticably absent.
    Last edited by John Russell; 12-13-2006 at 06:06 PM. Reason: text

  9. #209
    Sansai MysticKoi's Avatar
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    Russell, I'll look you up when I'm down your way sometime next year. The same with Bill
    John,

    You are more than welcome to come visit me anytime. Please bring Mr. Triplett with you (he and I get along just fine). Unfortunately, my golf game is pretty bad, and so I prefer to hack (and swear) in private!

    Kind Regards,
    Bill

  10. #210
    Banned
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    You may want to read some of the posts here John.

    http://www.ippca.com/phpBB2/viewtopi...=1031&start=15

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