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Thread: Designate Koi Varieties Into subspecies of Cyprinus carpio

  1. #1
    Sanctimonious Ass - BANNED
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    Designate Koi Varieties Into subspecies of Cyprinus carpio

    As is so often commonly said in the koi hobbyist community these fish are genetically disposed to variations in color and pattern and many desirable varieties have been lost and the history of them muddled via selective breeding. Why not pursue the application of the subspecies nomenclature to Cyprinus carpio for ornamental koi? Other animal and plant species are differentiated into subspecies by factors that may or may not include geographic distribution, behavioral characteristics, coloration, genetic markers and morphology. Why not koi? As specially bred varieties cannot be studied in the wild geographic distribution would not be a determinant, but how about behavioral characteristics as with the calmer manner of the chagoi due to its lineage? Color variety and patterning are obviously distinguishable variations that are hybridized with more veracity in koi it seems than Gregor Mendel accomplished with peas. Genetic and morphological distinctions seem likely to exist beyond variations of color including sizes and shapes of structural characteristics including finnage (long fins and butterfly), nasal tufts, and barbles.

    By definition “microevolution” occurs, “as evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies.” http://www.answers.com/topic/microevolution

    The Biological Species Concept (BSC) used in animal taxonomy, which was developed in 1940 (nearly 200 years after the father of taxonomy Carl Linnaeus began cataloging diversity via specific nomenclature) has brought greater order some say to what has always been considered an intuitive rather than exact science. Wilson and Brown (1953) quoted Moore (1949) who said, "there is no generally accepted and easily applied criterion for recognizing subspecies." However, the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature continues to list subspecies. “The Code is meant to guide only the nomenclature of animals, while leaving the zoologists some degree of freedom in classifying new species and higher-level taxa. In other words, whether a species itself is or is not a real entity is a subjective decision, but what name should be applied to it is not; the Code applies only to the latter, not to the former.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...l_Nomenclature

    As with orchid hybridizing the naming of subspecies as much of the rationale has always been based on the willingness of those doing the hybridizing in farming situations. Resisting the designation of subspecies would seem rooted in breeders not wanting such designations and possible indifference from hobbyists. Yet, if certain varieties have traits worth maintaining then a subspecies designation would provide the potential for possibly preserving at least the record of those characteristics for more than has been accomplished in decades and varieties past.

    Note: I was served by JNorth in post #16 as Cyprinus carpio koi is already a designated subspecies.

  2. #2
    Oyagoi koifishgirl's Avatar
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    Heck I just want to catch a wild green carp and spawn with a good looking male and see what I come up with. Now to me that would be fun

  3. #3
    Sanctimonious Ass - BANNED
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    Quote Originally Posted by koifishgirl View Post
    Heck I just want to catch a wild green carp and spawn with a good looking male and see what I come up with. Now to me that would be fun
    Sounds fun.
    Note: The ability of individuals in subsets of particular species to produce offspring has not diminished their potential categorization as subspecies.

  4. #4
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koicluboftheair View Post
    As is so often commonly said in the koi hobbyist community these fish are genetically disposed to variations in color and pattern and many desirable varieties have been lost and the history of them muddled via selective breeding. Why not pursue the application of the subspecies nomenclature to Cyprinus carpio for ornamental koi? Other animal and plant species are differentiated into subspecies by factors that may or may not include geographic distribution, behavioral characteristics, coloration, genetic markers and morphology. Why not koi? As specially bred varieties cannot be studied in the wild geographic distribution would not be a determinant, but how about behavioral characteristics as with the calmer manner of the chagoi due to its lineage? Color variety and patterning are obviously distinguishable variations that are hybridized with more veracity in koi it seems than Gregor Mendel accomplished with peas. Genetic and morphological distinctions seem likely to exist beyond variations of color including sizes and shapes of structural characteristics including finnage (long fins and butterfly), nasal tufts, and barbles.

    By definition “microevolution” occurs, “as evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies.” http://www.answers.com/topic/microevolution

    The Biological Species Concept (BSC) used in animal taxonomy, which was developed in 1940 (nearly 200 years after the father of taxonomy Carl Linnaeus began cataloging diversity via specific nomenclature) has brought greater order some say to what has always been considered an intuitive rather than exact science. Wilson and Brown (1953) quoted Moore (1949) who said, "there is no generally accepted and easily applied criterion for recognizing subspecies." However, the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature continues to list subspecies. “The Code is meant to guide only the nomenclature of animals, while leaving the zoologists some degree of freedom in classifying new species and higher-level taxa. In other words, whether a species itself is or is not a real entity is a subjective decision, but what name should be applied to it is not; the Code applies only to the latter, not to the former.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...l_Nomenclature

    As with orchid hybridizing the naming of subspecies as much of the rationale has always been based on the willingness of those doing the hybridizing in farming situations. Resisting the designation of subspecies would seem rooted in breeders not wanting such designations and possible indifference from hobbyists. Yet, if certain varieties have traits worth maintaining then a subspecies designation would provide the potential for possibly preserving at least the record of those characteristics for more than has been accomplished in decades and varieties past.
    Philosophy of Biology fun

    Dogs, in all there wonderful size, shapes, colours and behaviours are all still dogs and not categorised to subspecies?

    BB

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Philosophy of Biology fun

    Dogs, in all there wonderful size, shapes, colours and behaviours are all still dogs and not categorised to subspecies?

    BB
    Domestic dogs are a subspecies Canis lupes familiaris. Plus, there is great diversity amongst Canidae listed in the nomenclature. If there were need for concessions and compromise then at the most basic level of comparison of koi to domestic dogs in the nomenclature why not have them treated as domestics and categorized as a subspecies like domestic dogs accordingly?

    A dog is just a dog?

    Family Canidae (dogs)

    Genus Alopex
    • Alopex lagopus (Arctic fox)
      • Alopex lagopus lagopus Alopex lagopus beringensis
        Alopex lagopus fuliginosus
        Alopex lagopus groenlandicus
        Alopex lagopus hallensis
        Alopex lagopus lagopus
        Alopex lagopus pribilofensis
        Alopex lagopus sibiricus
        Alopex lagopus spitzbergensis
        Alopex lagopus ungava
    Genus Atelocynus
    • Atelocynus microtis (small-eared dog)
    Genus Canis
    • Canis adustus (side-striped jackal)
      • Canis adustus adustus Canis adustus bweha
        Canis adustus centralis
        Canis adustus kaffensis
        Canis adustus lateralis
      Canus aureus (golden jackal)
      • Canus aureus aureus Canus aureus algerensis
        Canus aureus anthus
        Canus aureus bea
        Canus aureus lupaster
        Canus aureus maroccanus
        Canus aureus riparius
        Canus aureus soundanicus
      Canus familiaris (dingo)
      • Canus familiaris dingo
      Canis latrans (coyote)
      • Canis latrans latrans Canis latrans cagottis
        Canis latrans clepticus
        Canis latrans dickeyi
        Canis latrans frustor
        Canis latrans goldmani
        Canis latrans hondurensis
        Canis latrans impavidus
        Canis latrans incolatus
        Canis latrans jamesi
        Canis latrans lestes
        Canis latrans mearnsi
        Canis latrans microdon
        Canis latrans ochropus
        Canis latrans peninsulae
        Canis latrans texensis
        Canis latrans thamnos
        Canis latrans umpquensis
        Canis latrans vigilis
      Canis lupus (gray wolf)
      • Canis lupes albus (Eurasian tundra wolf) Canis lupes alces (Kenai Peninsula wolf)
        Canis lupes arabs (Arabian wolf)
        Canis lupes arctos (Melville Island wolf)
        Canis lupes baileyi (Mexican wolf)
        Canis lupes beothucus (Newfoundland wolf)
        Canis lupes bernardi (Banks Island tundra wolf)
        Canis lupes campestris (Steppe wolf)
        Canis lupes columbianus (British Columbian wolf)
        Canis lupes crassodon (Vancouver Island wolf)
        Canis lupes fuscus (Cascade Mountains wolf)
        Canis lupes hattai (Kishida wolf)
        Canis lupes hodophilax (Hondo wolf)
        Canis lupes hudsonicus (Hudson Bay wolf)
        Canis lupes griseoalbus (???)
        Canis lupes irremotus (Northern Rocky Mountain wolf)
        Canis lupes labradorius (Labrador wolf)
        Canis lupes laniger (Tibetan wolf)
        Canis lupes ligoni (Alexander Archipelago wolf)
        Canis lupes lupes (European wolf, common wolf)
        Canis lupes lycaon (Eastern timber wolf)
        Canis lupes mackenzii (Mackenzie tundra wolf)
        Canis lupes manningi (Baffin Island tundra wolf)
        Canis lupes mogollonesis (Mogollon Mountain wolf)
        Canis lupes monstrabilis (Texas gray wolf)
        Canis lupes nubilus (Great Plains wolf, Buffalo wolf)
        Canis lupes occidentalis (Mackenzi Valley wolf)
        Canis lupes orion (Greenland wolf)
        Canis lupes pallipes (Iranean wolf)
        Canis lupes pambisileus (Interior Alaskan wolf)
        Canis lupes tundrarum (Alaska tundra wolf)
        Canis lupes youngi (Southern Rocky Mountain wolf)
      Canis mesomelas (black-backed jackal)
      • Canis mesomelas mesomelas Canis mesomelas achrotes
        Canis mesomelas arenarum
        Canis mesomelas elgonae
        Canis mesomelas schmiditi
      Canis rufus (red wolf)
      • Canis rufus rufus Canis rufus gregoryi
      Canis simensis (Ethopian wolf, Abyssinian wolf, Simion jackal, Simion fox)
      • Canis simensis simensis Canis simensis citernii
    Genus Cerdocyon
    • Cerdocyon thous (crab-eating fox)
      • Cerdocyon thous thous Cerdocyon thous aquilus
        Cerdocyon thous azarae
        Cerdocyon thous entrerianus
        Cerdocyon thous germanus
    Genus Chrysocyon
    • Chrysocoyn brachyurus (maned wolf)
    Genus Cuon
    • Cuon alpinus (Dhole)
      • Cuon alpinus alpinus Cuon alpinus adustus
        Cuon alpinus dukhunensis
        Cuon alpinus fumosus
        Cuon alpinus hesperius
        Cuon alpinus infuscus
        Cuon alpinus javanocus
        Cuon alpinus laniger
        Cuon alpinus lepturus
        Cuon alpinus primaevus
        Cuon alpinus sumatrensis
    Genus Dusicyon
    • Dusicyon australis (Falkland Island wolf)
    Genus Lycaon
    • Lycaon pictus (African hunting dog)
      • Lycaon pictus pictus Lycaon pictus lupinus
        Lycaon pictus manguensis
        Lycaon pictus sharicus
        Lycaon pictus somalicus
    Genus Nyctereutes
    • Nyctereutes procyonoides (raccoon dog)
      • Nyctereutes procyonoides procyonoides Nyctereutes procyonoides korweensis
        Nyctereutes procyonoides orestes
        Nyctereutes procyonoides ussuriensis
        Nyctereutes procyonoides viverrinus
    Genus Otocyon
    • Otocyon megalotis (bat-eared fox)
      • Otocyon megalotis megalotis Otocyon megalotis virgatus
    Genus Pseudalopex
    • Pseudalopex culpaeus (Colpeo fox)
      • Pseudalopex culpaeus culpaeus Pseudalopex culpaeus andinus
        Pseudalopex culpaeus culpaeolus
        Pseudalopex culpaeus lycoides
        Pseudalopex culpaeus megellanicus
        Pseudalopex culpaeus reissii
        Pseudalopex culpaeus smithersi
      Pseudalopex griseus (Argentine gray fox)
      • Pseudalopex griseus griseus Pseudalopex griseus domeykoanus
        Pseudalopex griseus fulvipes
        Pseudalopex griseus gracilis
        Pseudalopex griseus maullinicus
      Pseudalopex gymnocercus (South American fox)
      • Pseudalopex gymnocercus gymnocercus Pseudalopex gymnocercus antiquus
        Pseudalopex gymnocercus inca
      Pseudalopex microtis Pseudalopex sechurae (South American fox)
      Pseudalopex vetulus (Hoary fox)
    Genus Speothos
    • Speothyos venaticus (bush dog)
      • Speothyos venaticus venaticus Speothyos venaticus wingei
    Genus Urocyon
    • Urocyon cinereoargenteus (gray fox)
      • Urocyon cinereoargenteus cinereoargenteus Urocyon cinereoargenteus borealis
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus californicus
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus colimensis
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus costaricensis
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus floridanus
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus fraterculus
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus furvus
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus guatemalae
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus madrensis
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus nigrirostris
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus ocythous
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus orinomus
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus peninsularis
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus scottii
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus townsendi
        Urocyon cinereoargenteus venezuelae
      Urocyon littoralis (gray fox)
      • Urocyon littoralis catalinae Urocyon littoralis clementae
        Urocyon littoralis dickeyi
        Urocyon littoralis littoralis
        Urocyon littoralis santacruzae
        Urocyon littoralis santarosae
    Genus Vulpes
    Vulpes bengalensis (Indian or Bengal fox) Vulpes cana (Blanford's fox)
    Vulpes chama (cape fox)
    Vulpes corsac (Corsac fox)

    • Vulpes corsac corsac Vulpes corsac kalmykorum
      Vulpes corsac turkmenica
    Vulpes ferrilata (Tibetan sand fox) Vulpes pallida (pale fox)

    • Vulpes pallida pallida Vulpes pallida edwardsi
      Vulpes pallida harterti
      Vulpes pallida oertzeni
    Vulpes rueppelli (sand fox)
    • Vulpes rueppelli rueppelli Vulpes rueppelli caesia
      Vulpes rueppelli cufrana
      Vulpes rueppelli somaliae
    Vulpes velox (swift fox)
    • Vulpes velox velox Vulpes velox arsipus
      Vulpes velox devia
      Vulpes velox hebes
      Vulpes velox macrotis
      Vulpes velox mutica
      Vulpes velox neomexicana
      Vulpes velox nevadensis
      Vulpes velox tenuirostris
      Vulpes velox zinseri
    Vulpes vulpes (red fox)
    • Vulpes vulpes vulpes Vulpes vulpes abietorum
      Vulpes vulpes aeygptiaca
      Vulpes vulpes alascensis
      Vulpes vulpes apherakyi
      Vulpes vulpes alticola
      Vulpes vulpes anatolica
      Vulpes vulpes arabica
      Vulpes vulpes atlantica
      Vulpes vulpes barbaras
      Vulpes vulpes beringiana
      Vulpes vulpes cascadensis
      Vulpes vulpes crucigera
      Vulpes vulpes daurica
      Vulpes vulpes diluta
      Vulpes vulpes dolichocrania
      Vulpes vulpes doesalis
      Vulpes vulpes flavescens
      Vulpes vulpes fulva
      Vulpes vulpes griffithi
      Vulpes vulpes harrimani
      Vulpes vulpes hoole
      Vulpes vulpes ichnusae
      Vulpes vulpes induta
      Vulpes vulpes jakutensis
      Vulpes vulpes japonica
      Vulpes vulpes karagan
      Vulpes vulpes kenaiensis
      Vulpes vulpes krimeamontana
      Vulpes vulpes kurdistanica
      Vulpes vulpes macroura
      Vulpes vulpes montana
      Vulpes vulpes necator
      Vulpes vulpes ochroxantha
      Vulpes vulpes palaestina
      Vulpes vulpes peculiosa
      Vulpes vulpes pusilla
      Vulpes vulpes regalis
      Vulpes vulpes rubricosa
      Vulpes vulpes schrencki
      Vulpes vulpes silacea
      Vulpes vulpes splendidissima
      Vulpes vulpes stepensis
      Vulpes vulpes tobolica
      Vulpes vulpes tschiliensis
    Vulpes zerda (Fennec fox)

  6. #6
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Koi aren't genetically stable enough

    You give a long list of Canines, but they differ from Koi in many ways when it comes to designating them as to type/genus.
    If a Alopex lagopus (Arctic fox) pair breed year after year they will never reproduce a Atelocynus microtis (small-eared dog) . They will always and only reproduce after their own specific kind.
    A Kohaku pairing, even from two well established bloodllines, will reproduce a large number of non-kohaku offspring, (benigoi, Platinum Ogon, pickamutt...anymutt, etc...) The same is true of other well established varieties ie Sanke, Showa, Utsuri.
    How does one honestly establish varietal genus among creatures that reproduce such random varietal offspring?
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  7. #7
    Sanctimonious Ass - BANNED
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    You give a long list of Canines, but they differ from Koi in many ways when it comes to designating them as to type/genus.
    If a Alopex lagopus (Arctic fox) pair breed year after year they will never reproduce a Atelocynus microtis (small-eared dog) . They will always and only reproduce after their own specific kind.
    A Kohaku pairing, even from two well established bloodllines, will reproduce a large number of non-kohaku offspring, (benigoi, Platinum Ogon, pickamutt...anymutt, etc...) The same is true of other well established varieties ie Sanke, Showa, Utsuri.
    How does one honestly establish varietal genus among creatures that reproduce such random varietal offspring?
    If you believe the results of egg and sperm pairing is the determinant of what the parent's species or subspecies designation should be then apply that to a pairing example of Alopex lagopus with Atelocynus microis. Would you say they produce only either Alopex lagopus or Atelocynus microis and if not where do you go from there? Do you say that the parents must not have been Alopex lagopus and Atelocynus microis? Unlike koi and goldfish producing mules other animal populations are delineated often more by range and morphology than results of pairing. If the resulting progeny were the only measure of subspecies determination then consider the result of mixing benigoi or platinum ogons (your examples), with grass or black carp? The later two varieties are surely not pulled from your domestic nishikigoi spawns. I've already conceeded that something such as Cyprinus carpio domesticata for example for domestic nishikigoi would be a step in the right direction

  8. #8
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    So all Domestic dogs are a subspecies Canis lupes familiaris. A fox terrier and a great dane are still all the same sub species?

  9. #9
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    As Ray would say . . .

    TROLL ALERT

  10. #10
    Oyagoi koifishgirl's Avatar
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    The wild green carp has the most beautiful matsuba pattern and the light green color is stunning. I love to see them swimming and eating grass along the banks of a pond. Not only do they get huge you can walk up very close to these koi, so I consider them somewhat friendly.

    I do plan to spawn a pair when or if I can find one. I had a friend of mine fishing for one last year for me but they are not easliy caught. They fed these fish in a shallow area at the West Point Lake this past year with bread and they alway came up to eat for them.

    It may be a waste of my time but I still want to do this as you never know what will come of a spawn like this and so what, its just my time.

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