Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Evolutionary and genetic nomenclature . . .

  1. #1
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    3,774

    Evolutionary and genetic nomenclature . . .

    Jr's take on the issue might be of interest to some (since he can't be here to speak for himself). Don

    Evolutionary and genetic nomenclature

    Posted by James P on 11/12/2006, 4:34 pm
    User logged in as: JR
    152.163.100.198
    Evolutionary and Genetic Nomenclature

    One of the MOST confusing parts of understanding koi ancestry is trying to understand the ‘lumping and splitting’ of isolated gene pools.

    SPECIES- Common carp as a God man species has at least five subspecies. These subspecies can freely interbred ( one definition of a single species) but due to isolation and geographic distances, they have evolved to show physiological differences that qualifies them to be viewed as subspecies by ichthyologists/zoologists. There is basically, a prototype common species from the Caspian/black sea region, then split into one western and two Eastern sub-species and one sub Asian species. And there are natural morphs of some of these species. And from all these sub-species an morphs the many many races of ‘carp’ flow! In food carp these races ( defined as isolate pools of common carp species) are further split into ‘strains’ ( a concentrated gene pool within the race). Tropical fish breeders will instantly recognize the term ‘strain’ but nishikigoi hobbyists will not as they tend to use the term ‘bloodline’ instead of strain. So where do ‘nishikigoi’ fit in?

    RACE- Nishikigoi are an isolated gene pool or race of carp from several subspecies of common carp. They are not of the same race as common carp , as common carp have a specific phenotype and genotype as well as physiological differences cause by wild genetic composition and also by environmental adaptation leading to a natural selection. And nishikigoi have been isolated too long to be considered of the same race as either of the two main subspecies they arose from and are directly related to. VARIETY- Nishikigoi varieties however are unique as some are true varieties and others are really hybrid crosses of varieties within this unique race. It can all get quite confusing!! But as a general operating term, Variety or type is best way to describe the many looks of nishikigoi- a group of animals that share a unique color , pattern, skin/scale or other physical trait. A variety attempts to define a shared physical trait and in no way suggests physiological or biological differences from ‘others’- it is a purely descriptive category. That is also why the definition of ‘breed’ - an isolated pool that breeds true, is not quite right either. Especially when put to the test that defines mammal breeds- isolated and breeding true for generations! Some varieties of nishikigoi can ‘almost bred true’ like yamabuki, asagi or chagoi for instance. But other varieties are actually hybrids of two varieties and can’t bred true - in the least!
    If we take asgai for instance, it is the result of several sub-species of common carp, a mutation and then a variety. As an established strain however it was crossed back to other strains or varieties to make yet a new variety!

    On another level, the most recent efforts in Nishikigoi improvement have kohaku , as a variety , crossed back into other different varieties so that the ‘hybrid’ benefits from the kohaku attributes. Kujaku, ochiba, sanke, goromo , to name a few beneficiaries of this technique. As you think about this, you will likely reject the idea of bred and accept that at best, nishikigoi come in varieties. After all, it is not common for a cocker spaniel to turn out an occasional Saint Bernard puppy! Or throw off an occasional ‘wolf-looking’ pup!

    STRAIN OR BLOODLINE- As you study these things, I think you will come to agree with me, that ‘bloodline’ is too strong a word to describe strains of any one variety. The ‘blood’ is constantly being changed by additions to the strain to be a truly a bloodline as we see in mammals ( inbreeding for generations in some cases). Only the fact that traits DO indeed exist within a strain can be even begin to entertain the idea of ‘bloodline’.

    Think of variety as ‘what is different’ between koi of the same ancestry and race. But think of strain as ‘what is the same’ within a variety based on inbreeding of a concentrated or isolated gene pool sharing similar traits.

    None of this should be confused with the term Show Varieties ( really show classification) This is a collection of varieties under a SUPER heading of LIKE VARIETY that make this group unique or different from other varieties as a SUPER group.

    Source: NI (koimag.com BB) http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag...163352877.html

    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  2. #2
    Sansai Gail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    155
    Think of variety as ‘what is different’ between koi of the same ancestry and race. But think of strain as ‘what is the same’ within a variety based on inbreeding of a concentrated or isolated gene pool sharing similar traits.



    I like this paragraph.

  3. #3
    Sanctimonious Ass - BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jacksonville, Florida
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Nishikigoi are an isolated gene pool or race of carp from several subspecies of common carp
    hmmm, I wonder what subspecies of Cyprinus carpio these koi are derived

    Cyprinus carpio singnonensis?
    Cyprinus carpio wananensis?
    Cyprinus carpio yuankiang?
    Cyprinus carpio specularis?
    Cyprinus carpio haematopterus?
    Cyprinus carpio rubrofuscus?
    Cyprinus carpio chilia?
    Cyprinus carpio anatolicus?
    Cyprinus carpio carpio?
    Cyprinus carpio koi? Opps that's the end,..or are some of these varieties? Maybe some expert can find it?

  4. #4
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    3,774

    'Hot Air' Hawley . . .

    because you made no attempt to understand what JR said, because you responded with 12 ? marks and a smirkie, you get this for your X-mas stocking:


  5. #5
    Sansai Gail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    155
    Wow...

  6. #6
    Oyagoi koifishgirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,234
    Oh that is sooooooooooo cute. I want one

  7. #7
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    1,448

    Catlocarpio siamensis

    I wonder if the Giant carp from Thailand can breed with the other carp. http://www.carpecarpio.com/siamesegiantcarp.html One weighed in at 45kg and was 117 cm in length. What a fish.
    Mitch
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Evolutionary and genetic nomenclature . . .-45kgsiamesegiantcarpheliasnov2001.jpg  

  8. #8
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    3,774

    K F G . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by koifishgirl View Post
    Oh that is sooooooooooo cute. I want one
    I tried to send you one (well, a picture of one), but your email addy isn't listed in your public profile? Don

  9. #9
    Sansai Gail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    155
    Quote Originally Posted by dizzyfish View Post
    I wonder if the Giant carp from Thailand can breed with the other carp. http://www.carpecarpio.com/siamesegiantcarp.html One weighed in at 45kg and was 117 cm in length. What a fish.
    Mitch
    Lol.I would hope with other Giant Carp! That is a massive carp........

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Bay Area, and Placerville
    Posts
    1,079
    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Jr's take on the issue might be of interest to some (since he can't be here to speak for himself). Don

    Evolutionary and genetic nomenclature

    Posted by James P on 11/12/2006, 4:34 pm
    User logged in as: JR
    152.163.100.198
    Evolutionary and Genetic Nomenclature

    One of the MOST confusing parts of understanding koi ancestry is trying to understand the ‘lumping and splitting’ of isolated gene pools.

    SPECIES- Common carp as a God man species has at least five subspecies. These subspecies can freely interbred ( one definition of a single species) but due to isolation and geographic distances, they have evolved to show physiological differences that qualifies them to be viewed as subspecies by ichthyologists/zoologists. There is basically, a prototype common species from the Caspian/black sea region, then split into one western and two Eastern sub-species and one sub Asian species. And there are natural morphs of some of these species. And from all these sub-species an morphs the many many races of ‘carp’ flow! In food carp these races ( defined as isolate pools of common carp species) are further split into ‘strains’ ( a concentrated gene pool within the race). Tropical fish breeders will instantly recognize the term ‘strain’ but nishikigoi hobbyists will not as they tend to use the term ‘bloodline’ instead of strain. So where do ‘nishikigoi’ fit in?

    RACE- Nishikigoi are an isolated gene pool or race of carp from several subspecies of common carp. They are not of the same race as common carp , as common carp have a specific phenotype and genotype as well as physiological differences cause by wild genetic composition and also by environmental adaptation leading to a natural selection. And nishikigoi have been isolated too long to be considered of the same race as either of the two main subspecies they arose from and are directly related to. VARIETY- Nishikigoi varieties however are unique as some are true varieties and others are really hybrid crosses of varieties within this unique race. It can all get quite confusing!! But as a general operating term, Variety or type is best way to describe the many looks of nishikigoi- a group of animals that share a unique color , pattern, skin/scale or other physical trait. A variety attempts to define a shared physical trait and in no way suggests physiological or biological differences from ‘others’- it is a purely descriptive category. That is also why the definition of ‘breed’ - an isolated pool that breeds true, is not quite right either. Especially when put to the test that defines mammal breeds- isolated and breeding true for generations! Some varieties of nishikigoi can ‘almost bred true’ like yamabuki, asagi or chagoi for instance. But other varieties are actually hybrids of two varieties and can’t bred true - in the least!
    If we take asgai for instance, it is the result of several sub-species of common carp, a mutation and then a variety. As an established strain however it was crossed back to other strains or varieties to make yet a new variety!

    On another level, the most recent efforts in Nishikigoi improvement have kohaku , as a variety , crossed back into other different varieties so that the ‘hybrid’ benefits from the kohaku attributes. Kujaku, ochiba, sanke, goromo , to name a few beneficiaries of this technique. As you think about this, you will likely reject the idea of bred and accept that at best, nishikigoi come in varieties. After all, it is not common for a cocker spaniel to turn out an occasional Saint Bernard puppy! Or throw off an occasional ‘wolf-looking’ pup!

    STRAIN OR BLOODLINE- As you study these things, I think you will come to agree with me, that ‘bloodline’ is too strong a word to describe strains of any one variety. The ‘blood’ is constantly being changed by additions to the strain to be a truly a bloodline as we see in mammals ( inbreeding for generations in some cases). Only the fact that traits DO indeed exist within a strain can be even begin to entertain the idea of ‘bloodline’.

    Think of variety as ‘what is different’ between koi of the same ancestry and race. But think of strain as ‘what is the same’ within a variety based on inbreeding of a concentrated or isolated gene pool sharing similar traits.

    None of this should be confused with the term Show Varieties ( really show classification) This is a collection of varieties under a SUPER heading of LIKE VARIETY that make this group unique or different from other varieties as a SUPER group.

    Source: NI (koimag.com BB) http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag...163352877.html

    Very intresting.
    From what I "could" understand, which is'nt much. These are the questions that pop into my lil'head.

    1. Since there are classes in koi, are these potentially becoming seperate subspecies that can still interbreed?

    2. Because the desire for refining all of the classes is in a way purify the variety, is this creating a subspecies in a subspecie "koi"?? In otherwords, since they are concentrating a gene pool per variety is it sifting out all of the bad genes that are unwanted. Could all this breeding potentially backfire and cause massive mutations in the already overbred koi in the near to far future?
    Just what I am curious about.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic Research in Koi
    By BorG in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 09-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  2. Genetic Engineering?
    By RayJordan in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-09-2012, 11:14 AM
  3. Replies: 46
    Last Post: 02-06-2012, 02:24 PM
  4. Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku
    By schildkoi in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 259
    Last Post: 11-09-2010, 08:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com