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Thread: "Quality" Roundtable...open discussion to all

  1. #11
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagger View Post
    How about another question?

    Out of that hypothetical 600 tategoi how many will fulfil their promise or potential?
    Judging by the fact that most fish that are bought and resold by individual collectors are sold at a substaintial loss, I would say few make fairytales come true. Still most of us are still buying fish with a gleam of hope in our eyes. Look upon it as entertainment valve, but if you think you are investing, you might be shocked at retun on investment. Some have the skill to make better choices than other, but I have seen more than one koi judge sell fish that they hoped would do well at substaintial losses to dampen any of my personal hopes at GC runs.

    Rick

  2. #12
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Tategoi is a concept which really only has true meaning for the koi's breeder.

    For wise and thrifty Japanese breeders, the optimum scenario is to know when a koi has reached its qualitative peak and to sell it at its highest value.

    Koi which have reached their peak are sold as soon as possible, since there's no increased return to be achieved by continued expenditures for food, electricity and pond space.

    If a koi has not yet peaked, then neither has its value -- these koi are called tategoi.

    Breeders will sell tategoi, but they will only sell them at the koi's perceived future value.

    As hobbyists, we need to differentiate between tategoi and 'unfinished,' which is the condition most of us buy our koi in. The two terms are not synonymous.

    Or so I've been told.
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  3. #13
    Honmei
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    For most quality and Tategoi can not go together. You can attain quality without it being Tategoi. After all tategoi is more of a concept.

  4. #14
    Jumbo 111whalen's Avatar
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    What do I know? Is it used to inflate prices, because the breeder doesn't know or...? Ever bought a fish that didn't "live up to expectation". I am not sure what the real mccoy looks like; especially when you figure how many breeding pairs produce different styles and finish, then there is the number of varieties. How about Kohaku? What would make it tategoi? Only in showa do I see the potential and have, a few times had some gains.

  5. #15
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Forget about the tategoi hype for a lot of the reasons already stated. The odds that a breeder made a mistake and sold a koi that will develop into a grand champion are pretty small. However you can buy baby koi that will improve in quality and compete in small to medium sizes at competitive shows.

    Forget about finding a breeders mistake in the kohaku or the sanke tanks. Almost no chance a breeder will goof on one of these.

    Instead go for a variety that changes a lot and are harder to predict. Buy Showas or Shiro Utsuri's. I am not saying the odds are good just that they are the best you can find when looking for that needle in a haystack.

    Or go the other way and buy a chagoi or ogon. These types of koi are easier to produce in quanity and change somewhat less.

    A breeder keeps the best 10% (i.e. 400 best) to grow another year. You are looking for the one that almost made it like # 401!

  6. #16
    Jumbo cocoyboy's Avatar
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    That's true about showa and shiro. I have a shiro that I was about to donate a long time ago until recently but never got around to it. Just within the last few months it has went through a drastic change in the sumi pattern and it looks really good. It was allready promised to someone so I will continue to watch it from their pond.
    I have a few showa's, one in particular that I want to wait and see what happens to it. Decent conformation, color is down but even, shadows of sumi is deep in the skin. Only time can tell to see what happens with the ugly ducklings.
    Nor-Cal Koi Unit KOI ADDICTED AND NEED NO CURE!

  7. #17
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    In the May 2002 issue of Nichirin there is a discussion of "tategoi" by some leading ZNA hobbyists and a few breeders at a meeting of the ZNA Koi Appreciation and Guidance Division. Even in Japan the concept gains meaning from each person's perspective.

    Katsushi Takeda of Yamatake Fish Farm got to the bottom line: "A koi that will only double or triple its worth isn't a tategoi. Simply put, it's a koi that can put an extra zero on the price."

    In comparison, Masao Okabe, whose name you will see connected with many a prize winner in Japanese shows, had this to say: "My 85 Bu Koromo took the Best of Variety, but when it was 55 Bu it was a koi that nobody wanted to buy. Then it grew and grew. When it was in 80 Bu it took Best of Variety at the Tokushima and Fukuoka Shows, and in 85 Bu it went on to take the prize in Niigata. Now that's what I think is a real tategoi. Then I had a Tancho Sanshoku that measured about 35 cm; the skin was very yellow, and everyone said I'd gone mad. That koi also grew and grew, reaching 70 cm in five years, and took the top prize at the All Japan. The skin had cleared up nicely."

    Such different perspectives of the same thing.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
    For most quality and Tategoi can not go together. You can attain quality without it being Tategoi. After all tategoi is more of a concept.
    Tategoi really is what the koi hobby is about. Isnt it?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    In the May 2002 issue of Nichirin there is a discussion of "tategoi" by some leading ZNA hobbyists and a few breeders at a meeting of the ZNA Koi Appreciation and Guidance Division. Even in Japan the concept gains meaning from each person's perspective.

    Katsushi Takeda of Yamatake Fish Farm got to the bottom line: "A koi that will only double or triple its worth isn't a tategoi. Simply put, it's a koi that can put an extra zero on the price."

    In comparison, Masao Okabe, whose name you will see connected with many a prize winner in Japanese shows, had this to say: "My 85 Bu Koromo took the Best of Variety, but when it was 55 Bu it was a koi that nobody wanted to buy. Then it grew and grew. When it was in 80 Bu it took Best of Variety at the Tokushima and Fukuoka Shows, and in 85 Bu it went on to take the prize in Niigata. Now that's what I think is a real tategoi. Then I had a Tancho Sanshoku that measured about 35 cm; the skin was very yellow, and everyone said I'd gone mad. That koi also grew and grew, reaching 70 cm in five years, and took the top prize at the All Japan. The skin had cleared up nicely."

    Such different perspectives of the same thing.
    But something like that isnt really practicle to everyone is it?

  10. #20
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    No, it is not practical.

    You are beginning to understand tategoi.

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