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Thread: Update on VHS discussion

  1. #1
    Sansai
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    Update on VHS discussion

    This is a continuation of a heated discussion on another site with Koiabovetheair and myself. The challenge: to disprove a negative on Koi and the VHS virus

    Alright, where to start.

    First, instead of trying to impress you, the general readership of this board, with beating on my chest, bragging how bright, witty and charming I am, and what processes I am using to quash those that argue with me, I spent a few days doing research. Actually quite a few days.

    Simple stuff really, things that a real reporter coulda/shoulda done in the course of working on a story well before shooting off his mouth. Not posting how I am going to force them into giving me information that does not exist.

    I am also not one to beat around the bush, those of you that know me, know I try and get as close to the story as I can so I will know the truth, for better or worse. So I did a lot of reading, emailing, and phoning. What better way to cut through all the red tape John is throwing out, than to talk first hand with the people that are actually involved.

    Now on to the facts of the matter.

    When you google VHS, you will find a bunch of links to many different institutions of higher learning, the fore front of the understanding of things link the VHS virus.

    One that caught my eye was the 17th one down, seagrant.wisc.edu/fisheries. I noticed this one on Saturday morning. I had my heart in my throat, not because of any personal pissing matches but because of this statement.

    This is a quote from that link.

    “In the Great Lakes, VHS has been found in smallmouth bass, yellow perch, crappie, muskellunge, northern pike, bluegill, walleye, round gobies, carp, sheepshead, and some sucker species. Scientists are concerned; however, that VHS could also strike native salmonids such as trout, salmon and whitefish in the wild, and salmonids in hatcheries and net pen operations.”

    Now, notice that it does mention carp. I knew right away that John had no idea this article existed, otherwise he would have posted it right away in his arguments.

    Now, this is the only site that mentioned Carp in any way, all the other sites had the information verbatim with the exception of the carp. Now, in science, if several scientists get one result, and only one gets another, you take a closer look at the whole thing, but especially the study that showed the odd information.

    So I called and emailed U of Wisc, and Aphis. At both places I was treated with utmost respect by professionals that are actively involved with VHS and the current research being done.

    I brought the information to the attention of Dr Moy at the U of Wisc and after several more emails this is a portion of what I got back

    Daniel:

    Dave Mac Neill reported back this morning that, per his discussion with Paul Bowser VHS has NOT been confirmed in common carp.

    Daniel, thank you for bringing this to our attention; we will change the fact sheets accordingly.

    Phil

    Philip B. Moy, Ph.D.
    Fisheries and Nonindigenous Species Specialist
    University of Wisconsin Sea Grant Institute
    Alrighty then, there was a typo, carp were not found as being confirmed as being affected by VHS. That information literally brought tears to my eyes. Sorry, there are too many things already to deal with already.
    So, if you now go to the website, the information on that site now is corrected, and carp does not appear on the list anywhere.
    Now, that was the first step, I now had to go further to get information on why refractory tests were not being done on carp with the VHS strain 4 as had been discussed. How do you disprove a negative, remember?

    So while waiting for several other responses from the other PHDed researchers that are actually doing research on VHS, I contacted Dr Andy Goodwin at the University of AR, Pine Bluff. Interestingly he was working. Say it ain’t so John, a public servant working past 4 PM? But he was. And he took the time to talk to me about VHS.

    First off, Dr Goodwin spends 6-10 hours each day dealing with the VHS virus alone. I would guess the other time is spent on many of the other virus’s that abound in aquaculture, and not watching TV or spending time posting worthless dribble on chat sites.

    I gave him what information I had gathered and asked if I could get some other answers from him.

    These are statements he made. Aphis is more interested in naturally occurring infections instead of induced infections in a lab...To quote him “you can infect a fruit fly with the KHV virus in a lab setting if the dosage is high enough, so laboratory induced infection data is somewhat unreliable in the real world” And you also have to deal with a large number of false positives.

    Further, he stated that among those on the list currently, there will most likely be several if not many that fall off the Aphis list, because they will not show that they can be infected in a natural setting, but only in a lab.

    The testing that was done on this new Virus Genome 4 is a PCR-DNA test. When the final results are given, they will have used the culture tests, which are more reliable and a truer indicator of actual infection. So many of the fish listed above will fall off that list when this testing is done.

    While it “could always happen, carp are not on the list and have a fairly low probability to end up on that list.”

    When they(Aphis) do move to restrict the movement of fish, it will be the movement of fish leaving the Greater Great Lakes area. Should the virus show to spread into other areas, then steps will be taken to restrict movements of fish out of those areas.
    Respectfully submitted by
    d
    .

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Sorry, dOHd, but as soon as you say this is about trying to convince KCOTA of something, I lose interest.

  3. #3
    Sansai
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    Well that is a shame. What was posted was science to refute all his loud mouth claims about VHS and Carp. Mostly it had nothing to do with him. But he was the fire that lit the fuse

    Bottom line is unless you ship bait fish from areas around the great lakes, you really dont have too much to worry about at this time.

    By the way, this very same strain of virus the Genome 4, is also a real problem in two other areas, Korea and Japan.

    d

  4. #4
    Tategoi KoiCCAPW's Avatar
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    Thank you d

    I for one, am very glad you did this investigating, irrigardless of who(or maybe because)you were refuting. I learned a lot.
    Thank goodness that's at least one disease we don't have to worry about!
    I've been tempted to debate the fellow you mentioned, but didn't even know where to start, or have the energy to attempt it.
    Thanks for bringing us the science and not the hot air.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    dOHd:

    You are correct. I should not take that attitude. It was rude to you, rude to KCOTA and leads to closed-mindedness. I apologize. I resolve not to allow the frustrations of the day to affect my approach to koikeeping.

    I have now gone through your post. That is useful info. to have posted here. I certainly learned something. Months and years from now, someone seeking information will be able to search this forum and get on the correct track.

  6. #6
    Sansai
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    No apology needed.

    If any, I ought to do so for the length of the article. But when you are attempting to debunk a wrong conclusion, the response must be detailed enough to the process.

    As far as time consuming, doing the basic research was long. Most of the new year weekend. Then I had to wait for those researchers to get back in to work this week and begin to function again, which was suprisingly fast.

    These researchers, all of them PHD's, were most accomidating, and seemed to really enjoy "talking shop" with me. And even though I am not scientific, they took the time to explain the details to me without talking down. I really enjoyed the whole experience.

    But it just goes to show, if you make something your passion, you can do whatever you wish in life.

    I hope and pray that this thing does not keep morphing to eventually be able to infect other species.

    d

  7. #7
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by dOHd View Post
    No apology needed.

    If any, I ought to do so for the length of the article. But when you are attempting to debunk a wrong conclusion, the response must be detailed enough to the process.

    As far as time consuming, doing the basic research was long. Most of the new year weekend. Then I had to wait for those researchers to get back in to work this week and begin to function again, which was suprisingly fast.

    These researchers, all of them PHD's, were most accomidating, and seemed to really enjoy "talking shop" with me. And even though I am not scientific, they took the time to explain the details to me without talking down. I really enjoyed the whole experience.

    But it just goes to show, if you make something your passion, you can do whatever you wish in life.

    I hope and pray that this thing does not keep morphing to eventually be able to infect other species.

    d
    Well, if it does, I am sure we will hear it from KCOTA.

    Russ

  8. #8
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Russell . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
    Well, if it does, I am sure we will hear it from KCOTA.

    Russ
    Too funny. I was involved in that 'debate' and must congratulate Daniel not just for his research, but for his patience.

  9. #9
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Too funny. I was involved in that 'debate' and must congratulate Daniel not just for his research, but for his patience.
    Sure is nice not having the babble of KCOTA isn't it. Although saying this will probably jinx it.

  10. #10
    Honmei
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    Russell WaterGardens and KCOTA?

    Hey,

    Maybe this is why it is so quiet.....they are lurking and planning an assault together....

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