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Thread: Unchilling the waterfall

  1. #11
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moikoi View Post
    what if the outside temp is warmer than the pond temp? wouldn't the waterfall help warm up the pond temp.
    The scenario you describe doesn't work the way you might think. Waterfalls, Bakki Showers, Trickle Towers, work much the same as an old fashioned evaporative cooler. The water releases heat by evaporation which chills the water surface by a process called "latent heat of evaporation". Water droplets evaporate, re-condense, and chill the water in the process. That is one of the ways folks in tropical regions keep their ponds cooled during the hottest months.

  2. #12
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    [quote=dizzyfish;74980]The biggest problem I have is that my plumbing was not done in a way that allows for easy draining of the pipes. It is certainly an option I might consider redoing, but I generally enjoy the waterfall even in the cooler months, if it doesn't get real cold. So for me covering it and leaving it running seems like a decent option.


    Mitch , Me again . Having your koi fight the current that your water fall causes is not a great idea in the water temp. you have . We had a fellow Club member last year that left his water falls on and had major problems (Death) with his koi . I have placed a smaller pump on my pond for some filteration , but would never put my koi through having to use stored energy to keep in place , instead of just survival of the winter . You need to cut back the flow of water some how . Remember : Do you want your koi to survive or thrive ?

  3. #13
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    That depends on how big the difference is and the surface area. On the one hand you have the water absorbing heat as it is exposed to the warmer air But on the other hand the water is then subject to evaporation which then lowers the temperature of both the water and the surrounding air. Other factors come into play as well like the amount of sunlight and the sub-surface. Water in direct sunlight flowing over a black plate would gain in temperature. Likewise, water where the amount of evaporation was limited buy a cover would gain in heat as well.

    B.Scott
    Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

  4. #14
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    Mitch , Me again . Having your koi fight the current that your water fall causes is not a great idea in the water temp. you have . We had a fellow Club member last year that left his water falls on and had major problems (Death) with his koi . I have placed a smaller pump on my pond for some filteration , but would never put my koi through having to use stored energy to keep in place , instead of just survival of the winter . You need to cut back the flow of water some how . Remember : Do you want your koi to survive or thrive ?
    Hi Troy,
    Of course I want my koi to be happy. My pond is 20' wide and 40' long. The waterfall dumps into the middle in an area about 4' across. The current then goes toward the other end. So that means they have approximately 8' on either side of the falls to get out of the current. Not only that they can go to the other end of the pond where there is currently no circulation, since it returns to the filter before it reaches the other end. Now even if I put a valve in the return line and returned all the water into the pond somewhere else (not waterfall) the pump would still be pumping the same amount, so the current would be about the same or even more concentrated than the spread it gets from the falls. So I don't have my koi caged up and forcing them to stay in the current, they are free to go where ever it is most comfortable for them. Are koi totally stupid or do they have certain survival skills via Mother Nature? For what ever reason most of them like it up there in the area where the water returns to the pond, but instead of fighting the current they seem to just be hanging around. Out of all my koi 90% are up by the falls. I have included a picture of three that are at the opposite end laying around. The way I have it covered I don't think the water is being super chilled by the falls now. The koi actually look very content all things considered.

    The first photo shows snow on top of the cover whilst the water returns to the pond below. The second photo shows a couple of koi that chose to hang out at the opposite end from the falls. The last photos shows that the vast majority seem to prefer the area near the falls.
    Mitch
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Unchilling the waterfall-224_2451.jpg   Unchilling the waterfall-224_2446.jpg   Unchilling the waterfall-224_2449.jpg  

  5. #15
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Mitch , Not trying to be a thorn in your side , But help me out . You have not stated the Gallons of your pond or amount of water per hour that your water fall is moving ? You state that your pond has 8 feet on each side that has no current . If this is the case , you must have "Dead Areas" that cause trouble in the summer with solid settlement from the koi ?

    I know your not pulling water from the bottom of your pond , so I don't think your question/answer matters to much as far as water temp. . I'm moving around 10,000 gal. per hour (7000 from bottom drains) on a 6000 gal. pond , so you could see why I would shut things down over the winter . I believe your numbers are reverse of mine (bigger pond / Less moving water) ?

  6. #16
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Important Points of Distiinction

    Troy,
    In your circumstance moving large volumes of water during frigid temperatures would be a big no-no as you have observed. Since the vast majority of your intake is from bottoms drains it would force the chilled water to the bottom of the pond and create the kind of thermal cycling we try to aboid during winter months.
    Speaking only for myself, I'm moving about 8,000 gph on my waterfall, but 90% of the intake is from a surface skimmer with the remaining 10% from the bottom. The cold water drawn from the surface goes through vortex settlement and into my filter box which has a thermostat controlled stock tank heater inside before returning via our now tented waterfall. This provides modest circulation of freshly oxygenated water to the bottom of the pond (where the fish are) without chilling their comfort zone or creating any strong currents. Operating in this way we've gone through one heavy snow, a serious ice storm, several lesser ice/snow storms, and many subfreezing weeks with lows in the low-mid teens without any ice formation on the pond or fish problems.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  7. #17
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    I feel there has been alot of answers to Mitchs' question , but you guys dont know all the facts ! Mitch , I and two others spent 48 hours together in Dec. of 06' . I don't remember the Gallons of water his pond is or the pump size that goes through his water fall . But we did talk alot about his filtering , etc. . His pond has about 100 koi and no bottom drains and I feel this is important to know before quality answers can be given .There are alot of things we didnt agree (Me /Mitch) with when it comes to ponds/koi , and that is ok . I just feel that more facts about his setup should be known before a true answer can be given by anyone . Mitch talks about "cooler Temps." , sorry , its COLD , not cool here !

  8. #18
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Troy,
    I think the large pond is more forgiving in some ways. My water circulation is less than ideal. I am currently pumping 12,000gph on a 27,000 gallon pond. I look at how Waddy filters some of his ponds and realize that would be excellent. In summer I add a couple 2500gph submersible pumps in a couple of places to decrease dead areas. So my circulation sucks but somehow my koi seem to be hanging in. Some are over 10-years old now. I don't really have anything worth much over $1,000 or so anyway and most of mine are only in the $300-500 range. I certainly don't like losing any and honestly it hasn't been much of a problem. (knock wood) I work in the industry so showing is not an option for me. If I could go back and start over I would definitely do some things differently. I'm going to make another pond that will be much better and then figure out a way to rework the current one. I have a feeling you and Mike are very lucky I can't show and don't look back cause someone might be gaining on you.
    Mitch

  9. #19
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    The only koi I care about , when it comes to their quality , are mine . My concern with your case is the koi , not the quality of the koi . I feel that more facts should have been given or asked by the posters before a correct answer could be given . If you asked me how to get to Florida , I would have asked where do you live before I could give the "Correct" answer , I didnt see that happen here .

    larger ponds are more forgiving , but remember , its the surface area that matters the most in this case . We could have a 27,000 gal. pond alot of different ways .

    Mitch , I'm Koi Crazy , and not just about mine , you know that !

  10. #20
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    Mitch-

    There couldn't be too many people gaining on me as I'm still a beginning in the show circle. I was never won what I consider a "major" award. Mitch I commend you for making attempts to improve your system. I don't see anything wrong with circulating 12,000 gallons on a 27,000 gallon pond EXCEPT, make sure your 12,000 gallons are actually being circulated and not just the ratings on the pump(s). You also need a way to judge how well your modifications are doing, like the water temperature. I check my water temperature every day and note the change- up or down. But back to showing fish, I wish you could show your fish. It is a learning process. What you perceive as the value of your fish may change after the show. Some may be higher in value and some lower. I'm always adjusting my impression of my fish after a show, especially ones I enter for the first time.
    Mike Pfeffer
    Northern Midwest ZNA show
    June 19 - 20, 2010
    Season's Garden Nursery
    Fishers, IN

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