Soliciting opinions on KHV screening

[Spike Cover]

Hobbyists,

I need some opinions. And, what better place than a koi board to come for those <grin>.

Project KHV is strongly considering financing a Koi Dealer Best Health Practices (BHP) Certification Program that would address KHV specifically. Toward that end, we are discussing alternatives within such a program.

In order for a program to be effective it needs two major aspects:

• To be perceived as worth while, and
• Substantial participation

We have reviewed the scientific literature, conferred with the science folk, the dealers, the vets and to a certain extent, the hobbyists. This is an attempt to gain more input from the hobbyists.

In structuring our BHP program, we have thus far taken the “best” to mean the best balance between effective and practical. Here is some pertinent information:

• Active KHV can be uncovered by a quarantine at the permissive temperature for three weeks. If symptoms are observed, symptomatic fish may be sampled and tested using PCR methods. Any positive result should result in killing the batch and sanitizing the system.
• We would love to include meaningful testing for latency. Unfortunately there are currently no definitive tests for latency.
• There are a few tests for antibodies to KHV (KHVab) and we can safely conclude that every fish with KHVab has been exposed to the disease. Then, if we grant the premise that this is a herpesvirus and that it will produce latency, we can conclude that a positive KHVab test would possibly indicate a latent infection.
• Here’s the scientific part of the rub: there is testing that confirms previously infected fish can develop either a latent infection or a persistent low level (no symptoms) infection and later become infective (St-Hilaire et al. 2005). However, that same testing failed to support a theory that ALL previously infected fish will be carriers, i.e., currently no way to sort the wheat from the chaff (if there is a difference).
• Here comes the economic part of the rub. KHVab testing is not cheap, e.g., $20@ at UGA and £17.88@ in lots of 10 and £12.34@ in lots of 100 or more thru the CEFAS lab in England.
• Further to the economic rub: In order to obtain a scientifically meaningful sample, defined by CEFAS as either a 95% confidence that you’ve “found” the thing you’re looking for at either the 10% or 2% level, you’d need to test, 30 or 150 fish, respectively. See: http://www.cefastechnology.co.uk/khv...creen-inst.htm I think you can quickly see how this would be cost prohibitive at a dealer. (And yes, I know that the CEFAS site is referring to PCR testing at that link – the statistics work the same for all “looked for” parameters). The numbers change with small batch sizes but they remain substantial.
• If we toss vaccinated fish into the mix, testing for KHVab gets really messy quickly.

We’re considering a BHP that ONLY looks for active KHV disease and does so by the process described in the first item just above (i.e., quarantine and observe, kill if symptoms and PCR are positive, sell if not). It will NOT identify latent carriers. We believe this procedure, while not perfect, is the only economically viable option and will certainly “improve the process.”

So the question to hobbyists is:
How do you view the “quarantine and observe” option for a BHP program:

• A reasonable step right now even though it will NOT catch latency,
• Not worth doing, or
• You have another option?

Sorry for the long rant but I felt it would be difficult to have an informed opinion w/o it.

While you can certainly post on the board, I would appreciate it if you would also email me privately at scover@pacbell.net with your opinions (it’s a logistics thing).

You all have my sincere thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Spike Cover

[Brutuscz]

I like the quarantine and observe for safety...but why not put the testing option/burden on the purchaser. For instance...Quarantine and observe all fish at the required temperature. Randomly test one or two in the batch for safety. When you purchase a fish...the dealer should offer the option of $20(..or so)to test your specific fish...and hold it until the results come back. When your spending several hundred to several thousand for a koi...why not throw down the extra $20 for piece of mind? I would definitely feel safer about a purchase with this type of option.

[Spike Cover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz I like the quarantine and observe for safety...but why not put the testing option/burden on the purchaser. For instance...Quarantine and observe all fish at the required temperature. Randomly test one or two in the batch for safety. A small sample is nearly worthless to tell you anything about the batch. When you purchase a fish...the dealer should offer the option of $20(..or so)to test your specific fish...and hold it until the results come back. When your spending several hundred to several thousand for a koi...why not throw down the extra $20 for piece of mind? I would definitely feel safer about a purchase with this type of option.

There is nothing in the envisioned BHP that precludes any additional testing and/or proceedures. What we will set out are the minimum requirements for certification. It would, for example, be very useful for the dealers to clean up external parasites during quarantine. Again, this will not be required but neither will it be prohibited. Since we plan to spend Project KHV money for this, we felt that we must keep the BHP focused on our target.

Best,
Spike

[jnorth]

Sounds like a good idea. Here are a few questions:

1. I noticed you mention British testing facilities. Was this for reference or would the BKKS also be joining in this as a joint venture?

2. You posted the reasons for such a program and the basics but can you post a rough draft of what exactly it would take to be certified?

3. I understand it is money from Project KHV and so KHV is the target but wouldn't the hobby be better off if you did include practices for the rest of the QT process such as removing external parasites?

Thanks

[Spike Cover]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Sounds like a good idea. Here are a few questions: 1. I noticed you mention British testing facilities. Was this for reference or would the BKKS also be joining in this as a joint venture? 2. You posted the reasons for such a program and the basics but can you post a rough draft of what exactly it would take to be certified? 3. I understand it is money from Project KHV and so KHV is the target but wouldn't the hobby be better off if you did include practices for the rest of the QT process such as removing external parasites? Thanks

1. No
2. Will post a spec on the Project KHV site soon (in place of the current Phase 2 RFP) where you will be able to see the categories that will be addressed, e.g., facility, quarantine, record keeping, reporting and vet inspections. However, only AFTER the program is written and beta tested will there be clear and complete definition of what it takes to become certified.
3. Of course but we won't include that for the reasons I cited.

Spike

[MikeM]

Anything that increases protective measures is a good thing, so educational programs are worthwhile. Having a set of standards that provides high assurance of safety, and a dealer asserting that they voluntarily adhere to every suggestion... that's good. The customer can look around and see if the dealer seems to be following the right path.

However, as soon as you say "certified", the entire credibility of the program is on the line. Don't say "certified" unless AKCA is ready to financially guarantee every fish sold by the dealer that's been certified. Anything less and the program has become an agent for fraud... and don't think for a moment that a bunch of dealers aren't out there who will say whatever it takes to increase sales. They've done it before, even when caught selling KHV infected fish. They'll do it again.

The consumer needs the tools to know how to figure out if they are being hoodwinked.

Thanks, Spike, for all the work you put into the hobby. You're an under-appreciated guy.

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by Spike Cover 3. Of course but we won't include that for the reasons I cited. Spike

Let me say again that I think this is a great idea and I appreciate what you guys are doing but you asked for opinions so I hope I don't sound like I am nitpicking. To call it "Best Health Practices" and then limit it to KHV may make some not percieve it as very worthwhile. I would think a "Best Health Practice" certificate would try to encompass koi health in general. I think if you aren't going to include most aspects of koi health in a certificate type program then maybe it should be call Best KHV Prevention Practices or something along those lines as Best Health may lead you to believe they do more then test for KHV which they may or may not do.

[Spike Cover]

Mike,

First, thanks for what sounds like at least qualified support for the program.

Let me explain a few things:
1. This will not be an AKCA program. Project KHV has financed some market research and plans to finance the writing, development and initial marketing of the program. But it will not be an AKCA nor a Project KHV program.
2. The plan is to give (free of any charge) the program to any vet who agrees to only certify dealers who meet the minimum requirement of the program.
3. The certification will be done by vets acting as independent, competent third parties. This certiciaction will have no ties to AKCA. It is strictly between the vet and the dealer. AKCA cannot and will not underwrite the program for liability.
4. Vets will establish any criteria (above the minimums required by the program) to make sure their dealers are complying with the Program, e.g., initial inspection, regular reporting, unannounced inspections.
5. Vets will have the authority, and at their sole discretion, to pull the certification of one of their clients.

If the hobby doesn't trust the vets, then the program is in trouble.

Best,
Spike

[Spike Cover]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Let me say again that I think this is a great idea and I appreciate what you guys are doing but you asked for opinions so I hope I don't sound like I am nitpicking. To call it "Best Health Practices" and then limit it to KHV may make some not percieve it as very worthwhile. I would think a "Best Health Practice" certificate would try to encompass koi health in general. I think if you aren't going to include most aspects of koi health in a certificate type program then maybe it should be call Best KHV Prevention Practices or something along those lines as Best Health may lead you to believe they do more then test for KHV which they may or may not do.

We will call it something like "Koi Dealer Best KHV Health Practices Certification"

Spike

[karipeters]

Yes, thank you, a dealer course would be great. I'll try to retype what I just lost when I tried to post a minute ago.

'certification' is not the responsibility of the AKCA, because you can not guarantee what a dealer will do after he/she goes back to the store. However, proof that a dealer has completed a course on safe KHV quarantine and testing procedures may put a lot of minds at ease. Not all dealers have the resources to educate themselves on the proper protocol, and PCR testing is not the difinitive test. Here is what I learned from the amazing UGA Koi Health Seminar last weekend about their recommended KHV quarantining procedures:

• receive and separate all incoming koi by breeder and/or shipper
• quarantine all new fish for a minimum of 2 week and definately until you have results from a blood test for antibodies sent to UGA
• upon receiving fish, take 15-20% of inventory from each breeder and shipper and heat them separately at 74 degrees for 2 weeks
• THEN, draw blood, separate and freeze it and send it to UGA where you will receive results usually within 24 hours
• any fish that have KHV antibodies should be destroyed and systems sterilized. If clean bill of health, OK to sell

Dealers should make their own declarations and recommendations to quarantine to the customers.

Having the assistance of the AKCA would be immensely helpful. I hope this works out.

YEAH, Spike. You are awesome.