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Thread: New Arrivals in Colorado

  1. #411
    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bob Winkler;155149) I am open other ideas.[/QUOTE]


    Hi Bob,

    May I suggest you to reduce your indoor pond’s water temperature?

    My indoor pond is heated as well as my outdoor pond. I set my indoor pond’s water temperature “between” 17.5 degree C to 19 degree C. I don’t seem to have any problem on condensation. I am also running one Whirlpool Dehumidifier with 70 litres capacity. The dehumidifier is set on auto and is running at 24 hours non-stop. However Vancouver’s winter may not be as cold as yours but I am prepared to reduce my indoor pond’s water temperature lower if it is necessary.


    Derrick


    Hi Derrick et al,

    I moved this reply here, so as not to hijack the Omosako Grow out thread for others

    The pond temperature is typically reduced during this time to 45F. Winter fast and all that. One difficulty with dehumidification with our two units is that they apparently do not work as well below 65F. I think most are that way? What has worked, somewhat, is to turn the fan dehumidification switch...yes I forgot to mention this..to a lower humidity setting and open some of the sliding glass doors for the breeze and fresh air in, humidity out. Unfortunately, in the dead of winter and snow storms, this lowers the temp of the room quite a bit, and it ices up in there, along with snow, etc getting in.

    It seems to me that if I could have the temp of the room just above the water temp of 45F, it would not be as humid. But without HVAC, tough to do. The electric heaters do help, but of course not the wall temp. Luke's comment of the colder walls and condensation is also not lost on me at this point either,.....Challenges also include getting the water temp down to that 45 without the doors open. The sun room is quite effective in the winter sun, and while cold outside, the water temp "uncooled" (doors open) does not dip below 50-55ish. Thoughts?
    Best regards,

    Bob Winkler

    My opinions are my best interpretation of my experiences. They are not set in stone as I intend to always be a student of life. And Koi.


  2. #412
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Mulling a few thoughts over here so I'm just going to toss out some random thoughts to see if anything sticks.

    First off, location is everything. Where are the heaters physically located in the room and are they passive or forced air flow? Same location question for the dehumidifiers and what direction do they face in relation to the walls?

    No HVAC in the room does make things more difficult obviously, but finding ways to move more air across the outside wall should help to wick moisture away more rapidly.

    As to getting the temp down into the sub 50F range, louvered, thermostat controlled exhaust fans are available if you want. They can be mounted in the ceiling with the exhaust vented out through the roof. That might help you out on both parts of the issue, particularly with humidity in the pump/shower room.

    Another Q on the pond room. How many plants do you have growing in there? Since you have temperatures comfortably above freezing there may be some you could utilize that would draw moisture naturally as an adjunct.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  3. #413
    Sansai
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    not sure i can offer that much, but i used to specialize in drying buildings, gym floors, etc, for insurance companies, govts, schools, etc...

    in those times i had available to me very sized dehumidifier and airmover you can imagine and a lot you cant...

    now, not sure how these things work in an environment where you want/have and expect a certain amount of moisture all the time, but perhaps the discussion may lend some ideas....ie an indoor pond...

    just some things i used to remember.....the higher the temperature, the greater the airs ability to hold moisture....air also seeks equilibrium in pressure/humidity, etc...moving air across something will dry it or keep it dry quicker then stagnant air....

    so moving heated air across a damp surface or the potential to be a damp surface will dry it or keep it dry....also exchanging dry air for damp air will do the same....

    simply when i had to dry a building fast....i considered some variables...the outside temp, the outside humidity......the inside humidity and inside humidity levels......base on those variables a lot of times i could dry a builging, room, etc, faster and cheaper then someone with a room full of equipment...simply by venting out the moist air and bringing in dry air from outside....(if the conditions allowed).....if outside air unavailable, simply check the other parts of the building/house for drier conditions and by creating a negative pressure where you want the drier air, (ie again via venting) and remembering that air pressure wants to be equal, drier air from other areas of the house will naturally flow to the negative pressure area....

    hope this helps...

    there are many other considerations.....ie drying too much, dehumidifier overkill, etc, but the ones above are some basic ones...

  4. #414
    Oyagoi
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    i got a dehumidifier from menard/lowe/home depot(somewhere) that does go lower then the 65 degree mark.(do not remember what temp).it is a haier brand
    I have a full wall of plants planted right in the dirt in pond room.THEY LOVE IT but do not think they help anything for moisture on this fast of level.
    last year i kept room at 60 degrees due to LP cost but this year went to 64 so that might be helping dehumidier also.course since it ran more that helped some.heat in that room is just one of them garage style heaters so no duct work needed.
    my walls are like the extrior plywood with grooves that is also deck stained for weather.
    trim is cedar 1x4 (give or take where located)

    so all said and done i have problems also so i have no answer either.
    but will say the cedar is not having problems but also some of my problem areas on the plywood part might have to do with it not being 100% sealed(recessed light ,edges) but years later other areas are becoming a problem also.should restain but how will be my problem.

    side note: i do not heat water and temps stay about 1 degree less then air temp in the room(liner pond in ground just like an outdoor pond would be).
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  5. #415
    Sansai
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    paul brings up some other interesting points/considerations....

    if you are using dehumidifiers, find out and know their ratings....as to ideal working temps, etc, humidity rates....

    also with some constructions....have to consider flooring materials ie wood vs concrete......wall constructions with vapor barriers, insulation, ceiling and attic insulations, etc....

    as well as climate, etc..

    another way to think of it.....just like a pond and turnover rates, etc...think of air and turnover rates/exchanges...

  6. #416
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleRG View Post
    paul brings up some other interesting points/considerations....

    if you are using dehumidifiers, find out and know their ratings....as to ideal working temps, etc, humidity rates....

    also with some constructions....have to consider flooring materials ie wood vs concrete......wall constructions with vapor barriers, insulation, ceiling and attic insulations, etc....

    as well as climate, etc..

    another way to think of it.....just like a pond and turnover rates, etc...think of air and turnover rates/exchanges...
    That's exactly what I was thinking about. Moving the moisture out of the room(s) via controlled air exchange could make a huge difference, especially with the cold dry air available from the great outdoors.

    My thought tends toward the exhaust drawing air from floor level to the outside with fresh air intake from the attic. If the air intake was above the "wet walls" it would tend to dry the area via wicking action and reduce total moisture content in the room at the same time. Utilizing thermostat control for the exhaust fans would give the added benefit of allowing control over the pond temperature as well.

  7. #417
    Sansai
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    that is pretty much what i would lean towards, larry.....

    and there are heat exchangers available that would take the heat out of the "exhausted" air and heat the "supply air" in an effort to keep heating costs down.....

    your wicking is another term for permeance.....all construction materials have a permeability factor, ie the number of grains of moisture that specific material with absorb at a given temperature and humidity level.....concrete, wood, paint, drywall, etc, etc....ie why things swell when damp....

    well that principle works in reverse as well......those same materials will shed drains of moisture at the same rate as they absorb....ie why things cup, shrink, crack, etc when too dry....

    now this becomes a little more complex with the addition of the pond....as it will be releasing grains of moisture into the air at different temperatures/humidity, etc.....

    the trick will be to attain and then maintain that equilibrium with all those different variables....

    so there is lots to consider....and take into account....

  8. #418
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    That's exactly what I was thinking about. Moving the moisture out of the room(s) via controlled air exchange could make a huge difference, especially with the cold dry air available from the great outdoors.

    My thought tends toward the exhaust drawing air from floor level to the outside with fresh air intake from the attic. If the air intake was above the "wet walls" it would tend to dry the area via wicking action and reduce total moisture content in the room at the same time. Utilizing thermostat control for the exhaust fans would give the added benefit of allowing control over the pond temperature as well.
    That makes sense. It is not the moisture one should worry about but the
    possibility of mould growing right in the walls were it is not seen.
    You can reduce the water surface area by floating rigid foam insulation on half of the pond. One of the very best is a wood stove for dry air.
    Regards
    Eugene

  9. #419
    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    The humidity controlled fan you have suggested I already have in there... and another wired to go from the beginning, but not installed yet. It is not enough... The installed fan happens to be in the filter room, and interestingly, we have less trouble in there compared to the main pond room. Some trouble, but less. The bakki shower and quarantine pond (typically at much higher water temp than the main pond during this time) in the filter room should increase the humidity in that room.. Humidity meters in each room show slightly less in the filter room.. Rooms are connected. fan running or not doesn't matter. One worry is for my heater copper pipes to freeze if I just lave the doors all open...

    just some additional info...It seems to me the warmer air running down the walls has promise... but how to accomplish that? The builder is suggesting I hook something up to my pond boiler to create that air flow...sounds expensive to me, but a bigger worry is what does that do to my pond heat capacity? All the answers to that are not in yet...

  10. #420
    Oyagoi
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    i try and leave my windows cracked as long as possible but like BOB it gets COLD so worst is the incoming air will be awfuly cold like single digit stuff give or take on the day of course.
    so have looked at farm stuff that have the exchanger where inlet pipe is the large pipe and exhaust fan has a long pipe inside of intake to try and warm the air coming in a little.just wonder how long it would take to lower whole room temp to below freezing.course single digits would not take long at all.

    still looking at moving south where koi stay out and COULD be kept feeding year round

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