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Thread: whats a tategoi??

  1. #31
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Bimbo: The final decsion??? There isn't one. Enjoy the ambiguity.

  2. #32
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    Let's get over it! Tategoi in its broadest use means a fish with potential. Tategoi are available at all price ranges. The more skilled the breeder, the less likely a tategoi will be found in the bargain bin. However, a farm will sell tategoi for a variety of reasons. I remember an interview where a gentleman was commenting on how Mano of Dainichi had a wonderful eye for koi. How he could pick out and develop tategoi from another farm's tateshita. Does Mano need to be resurrected from the dead to disprove this ridiculous notion that koi farms only sell tateshita?

    Tategoi means a fish with potential. Have hope! Regardless of how abused the term is, there are true tategoi available at reasonable prices. The skill to spot and develop that potential is rare. You may have to look at 10k fish to find one, but it exists. Ultimately it's not the breeder who determines what a tategoi is, no one can. A breeder provides his best estimate. You can only say a fish was truly a tategoi in retrospect.

    How's that for going against the grain?

  3. #33
    Nisai k.tran's Avatar
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    thanks for that...i think that pretty much clears everything up
    .

    but 10k for a tategoi?? thats a little much

  4. #34
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k.tran View Post
    thanks for that...i think that pretty much clears everything up
    .

    but 10k for a tategoi?? thats a little much
    NO!!! What Rich said was that you may have to look at 10,000 fish to find ONE fish with enough potential to be considered a "tategoi".

    Here's my BOTTOM LINE personal opinion on this matter - IF you wish to believe a dealer's statement that a fish is a tategoi and spend XXX dollars for it, then by all means go ahead! If you think a fish has potential and YOU think it's a tategoi, then believe what you want. There are "dreamers" and there are "realists". Be what you want to be and get what you want out of this hobby. IMHO, the term TATEGOI has been bastardized by too many trying to make a quick buck at the expense of the unknowing "newbie". The rest of us know enough not to get caught up in the whole thing!!

    Mike

  5. #35
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Tategoi is a "Projection". Tategoi is not a dream, because most dreams dont come true. Tategoi is a "Projection" where the hobbyist hopes the fish will do better with each year it is in the pond.

    If I was in Japan I can show a hobbyist a toilet and tell them the terd in it is a tategoi and that is what most supposed tategoi look like, like shiyt...Will it get better? Well I hope so...

    You can ask anyone what a tategoi looks like and they will tell you different. "Master so and so said it like this" or "breeder so and so said it like this" or "judge so and so said it like this"...Then you ask yourself what do they really know about "tategoi".

    I remember a hobbyist came up to me and asked me what I thought of the fish he was thinking of buying...I said pretty good "potential"...He then said, "I know it has potential, but is it tategoi?" I looked at him and said, "Then you answered your own question." He looked at me confused and let the fish out of the tub and begun to pick my brain somemore. I told him if the projection of the fish is where you want it to be in 3-5 years then it reached it's potential. From that point, then you go year to year and is basically a bonus.
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  6. #36
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    An off-topic discussion of 'tategoi' in another thread reminded me of this discussion, which went in circles.

    For me, 'tategoi' no longer has meaning beyond the use made of the term by the breeder of the specific fish. Some breeders reserve the term for rare koi of special potential. Some use it to refer to all koi kept for another year before being offered for sale. Some have other variations in what they mean by the label. When used by a dealer, it means 'I gotta justify the price somehow'. When used by the hobbyist for one of their own fish, it means I must not say anything to burst the balloon.

  7. #37
    Tategoi semi skilled keeper's Avatar
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    Hi MikeM you may have read my 'rant' off topic.
    Some how the word TATEGOI seems to have acquired a few words added to 'the unfinished Koi with potential added by to become a show winner !
    You will be very lucky indeed if you EVER GET TO SEE ANY BREEDERS TRUE TATEGOI. IT WOULD BE A BIT LIKE seeing your opponents cards when playing poker.
    % of Koi bred to Tategoi is very low,5% or less . But there are many very close to being Tategoi this year, they may be upgraded next year if still on the farm.
    You have to remember a fish farmer needs to sell fish each year, in order to maintain cash flow.
    It cost money to keep a Koi for one more year, at the end of that year its' value may not have gone up , it may even have gone down !
    I noted on the other thread that if a breeder keeps his top 50 number 51 is still up for sale. The difference between the top 50 and the next 250 is very small !
    BUT ENOUGH TO BE A WINNER OR NOT !
    Brian

  8. #38
    Sansai darion6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Kelvin . . .

    At the very, very simplest level a tategoi is an unfinished koi with great potential.

    The word is often misused; especially in marketing.

    At its highest level, tategoi speaks to a breeder's vision. When a breeder looks at his koi's potential today and sees that the koi will continue to develop and get much, much better -- years and years down the road -- then that koi can be considered tategoi.

    If tategoi, a breeder can charge today what it will be worth next year or the year after -- if he will even sell it, at all.

    Very few tategoi ever leave Japan, and that's why most top hobbyists are so tight with use of that oft abused adjective.

    Hey, did you see what JR posted this morning to your other thread re: use of the word tategoi? If you haven't, he said:

    When asked if a baby fish is a tategoi, even that word will have two distinct meanings:

    1) does the fish have a chance to improve based on what is seen today? Maybe for one more year? Or two more years? Remember, all tategoi are unfinished but not all unfinished fish are tategoi.

    2) does the fish have ALL the elements present that suggest it will be tategoi for many years and then come together as a finished high grade koi at 76 cm?
    Hi Don,

    I have understood what tategoi means to an extent, but this explanation makes it very clear, and thanks! =)

    Billy

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