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Thread: Ki 'Showa' Development one year on

  1. #11
    Tosai paladin_k2's Avatar
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    Seeing that picture of the male parent provides us with strong clues as to what it is that you really have in the fish shown in the pictures in the first post.

    I believe strongly that the genes for pattern placement and pigmentation color are inherited independently. In a perfect world you could pic and choose to pass on the genetic patterning of a fish if you find another similarly marked fish and the genetic lotto balls just happen to turn up well aligned.

    In a seperate genetic transaction the genes to the coloration of the pattern elements are inherited independently from the two parents.

    In your case, since you have an intense and well marked Hi Showa male parent I would speculate that the offspring is a recessive sport showing some flavor of the lutino varient of the Ki coloration. You just got lucky/unlucky and ended up with an offspring from two red parents where the coloration is a result of matching up recessive yellow color genes. Unfortunately the recessive matchup appears to be just a very poor quality color gene that could indeed be more of an albinism fault as JasPR speculates.

    I would speculate that there is not much value in pursuing a breeding path that would try to intensify the color on this current fish. The best Ki Utsuri and Ki Showa that I have seen in terms of the richness of of the yellow color have been produced out of well marked deep red showa, hi showa, or hi utsuri that have been crossed over into the yellow coloration lines transfering in the strong yellow color to match up with existing recessive yellow color genes in the Hi based fish while picking up the strong sumi and strong intense color pattern from the Hi based fish and matching those factors up with recessive elements in the more solidly colored yellow fish.

    Since you have fish such as the male parent that can obviously carry intense red coloration I speculate that the current 18 month old psuedo Ki based fish that you are watching will be just an intensely weak colored genetic carrier and not a fundamentally strong candidate for further breeding development. You will have to import the strong color gene from somewhere and in this case the sumi patterning and underlying skin quality does not appear to be a pallet that will support you being successful in the long run.

  2. #12
    Tosai myrubi04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    The genetics is either there or it isn't- and as you know there is world of difference between phenotype expression and core genetics.

    The reason it is so hard to get pastel or lutino yellow together with black is that you need double recessive genes. So only a very few fish can be expected per spawn. Maybe the answer lies with an shiro utsuri X kigoi cross? Or at least as a first step. JR

    JasPR...where did you learn genetics and how do you know which genes are recessive for phenotypes of koi? I am a Biology Major and I would love to learn more about this.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
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    There are several written studies, mostly in Japanese, that you could have translated that are quite enlighening. The Israeli breeders also have done some interesting work in this area and Rothard and others have published the basic genetics. It's not as advanced as the Japanese insight but it serves as a great primer to basic genetics in koi.
    Unfortunately you won't find it all in one place like a single college text book. I have been accumulating interviews, actual studies on genetics of koi and DNA of koi as well as popular literature for 20 plus years now.
    When I travel to Japan, and I'm trapped on that plane for 15 hours, I spend the time creating and going over a list of questions I would like to have input on from the breeders. In past years I have also taken test equipment for the same reason. I ask every breeder I get a chance to converse with quietly, the same question/questions. And it is facinating what answers come back- not always the same! I also keep in touch with several English speaking Japanese breeders on a monthly basis. I also keep in touch with several ZNA members over there that are accumulating the same info I am. That relationship with Japanese hobbyists has proven to be a real 'hyper drive' in the education process as they talk to breeders constantly and in their own language style which yields deeper information that a non Japanese speaking individual could possibly get on their own in a brief two week visit to Japan.
    In the end, It is a long drawn out process but the body of information does accumulates and a picture emerges. Part of the fun is the hunt!
    JR

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    Mike , there is ' weak beni' ( as in THIN and only occupying the epidermis or the upper skin later above the scale) and there is dilute beni ( a normal or desirable thickness but of a dilute gene). Many of the nice ki Utsuri that come up from Hiroshima and are sold by a Niigata breeder as his own production are really dilutes of hi utsuri. These fish get darker with age ( darker orange) and the jig is then up! As I said in my post, Ki utsuri of best quality are a lutino gene pastel yellow.
    JR

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