Relative Quality of US bred Koi

[RayJordan]

Very few domestic U.S. breeders focus on breeding and growing top quality show koi. The market in the U.S. and elsewehere is mostly in inexpensive tosai. Varieties with metallic, Gin Rin, with some flash at a young age that cost less than $25 retail is where the market thrives.

U. S. Breeders would need at least 12 sets of very high quality gosanke parents. They would have to be able to produce and grow several thousand two year old high quality gosanke and several hundred three year old higher quality gosanke and several dozen four year old very high quality gosanke in proper sized and maintained mud ponds to have a chance to be sucessful.

So in additional to maybe a dozen mud ponds for tosai they would need about 10 larger mudponds for Nisai (200 ea), 5-6 ponds for Sansai, and 2-3 for Yonsai and older. This investment and farming scale is quite a bit larger than any U.S. dealer I am aware of.

However, I strongly urge hobbyists to support our domestic breeders. Hobbyists with larger well designed ponds need to buy some of the better quality domestic koi to grow. I would love to see a strong group of domestic breeders vreeding higher quallity koi. THis can only happen if hobbysts are willing to support their efforts. Also breeders with options to sell/grow they best koi for customers in mudponds need to be supported. I hope someone wins JR's dollar soon.

[HEADACHE6]

[quote=RayJordan;82952]

So in additional to maybe a dozen mud ponds for tosai they would need about 10 larger mudponds for Nisai (200 ea), 5-6 ponds for Sansai, and 2-3 for Yonsai and older. This investment and farming scale is quite a bit larger than any U.S. dealer I am aware of.

Ray , That sounds alot like Quality Koi Farm . I was up there last year , and although I didn't do a pond count , they sure seemed to have a bunch of them .
Note: In the last pic. , note the white barn (far left) . This should give everyone a idea of the size of some of their mud ponds .

[moikoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by sumthinfishys It seems to me the price for semi-good quality domestic Koi has gone up too much. I believe domestic breeders are using the in house only KHV free scare tactics to the pricing table. They advertise they haven't brought in any new parent stocks in years or taken in any outside Koi. Thats great and we all want safe healthy fish. But I think they are charging too much for what you get. Are some nice? yes. Do they compare with imports in regards to size, patterns, and quality? NO. You can go to any of the well known importers and see tons of Koi far better than the best domestics. Id buy more domestic if there was a savings, but lately they cost more than better imports. Its a Shame. Mike Cl

agree 110%. exactly what i said on post #8. a nice domestic breed tosai ain't cheap.

[Sangreaal]

No matter how good or how competitive American koi can get, even at its pennacle there will be a preference for Japanese bred koi.

Why? Because they are 100% Japanese.

Are not all koi in America Japanese? Yep, they are all from Japanese stock and have Japanese lineages. The only thing different is the homeland they were bred in. This, in essence, cuts their ties to Japan simply by nationality, and when we do that, the traditional mystique and heritage of the koi is lost as it ceases to be a Japanese creation.

American breeders will never be able to overcome this, even with a gazillion bucks to buy every last koi in Japan and ship
'em here to breed! There will always be collectors that prefer koi from Japan simply because of the rich Japanese heritage behind them. But this does not mean that American breeders cannot establish their own traditions that will, in time, be valued.

We are in our infancy as far as background in breeding koi goes, but don't ever discount where we're going with it. It'll never be viewed the same as the Japanese, but it'll be just as good.

Marie

[Steve Nguyen]

hey Marie! welcome back.

Steve

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal No matter how good or how competitive American koi can get, even at its pennacle there will be a preference for Japanese bred koi. Why? Because they are 100% Japanese. Are not all koi in America Japanese? Yep, they are all from Japanese stock and have Japanese lineages. The only thing different is the homeland they were bred in. This, in essence, cuts their ties to Japan simply by nationality, and when we do that, the traditional mystique and heritage of the koi is lost as it ceases to be a Japanese creation. American breeders will never be able to overcome this, even with a gazillion bucks to buy every last koi in Japan and ship 'em here to breed! There will always be collectors that prefer koi from Japan simply because of the rich Japanese heritage behind them. But this does not mean that American breeders cannot establish their own traditions that will, in time, be valued. We are in our infancy as far as background in breeding koi goes, but don't ever discount where we're going with it. It'll never be viewed the same as the Japanese, but it'll be just as good. Marie

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Steve Nguyen hey Marie! welcome back. Steve

*waves and smiles* Hi Steve!
Thanks...

M

[kevan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal No matter how good or how competitive American koi can get, even at its pennacle there will be a preference for Japanese bred koi. Why? Because they are 100% Japanese. Are not all koi in America Japanese? Yep, they are all from Japanese stock and have Japanese lineages. The only thing different is the homeland they were bred in. This, in essence, cuts their ties to Japan simply by nationality, and when we do that, the traditional mystique and heritage of the koi is lost as it ceases to be a Japanese creation. American breeders will never be able to overcome this, even with a gazillion bucks to buy every last koi in Japan and ship 'em here to breed! There will always be collectors that prefer koi from Japan simply because of the rich Japanese heritage behind them. But this does not mean that American breeders cannot establish their own traditions that will, in time, be valued. We are in our infancy as far as background in breeding koi goes, but don't ever discount where we're going with it. It'll never be viewed the same as the Japanese, but it'll be just as good. Marie

i remember many saying the same kind of thing about buying japanese cars compared to american and british cars, saying they will only ever buy an American car was so common as the japanese cars to start with were not so good, yet after years of being knocked, they came up with the goods and appear to be doing rather well these days, in fact many are now considered some of the best cars in both Britain and America, while many would have laughed at the thought when they started out!
what happend to nearly everyone saying ill never buy any car but american and the tradition etc that goes with it? while some still stick with this many no longer do.

if the quality and value is there people will eventually buy, they may find it difficult to except at first like japanese cars/bikes, but eventually many will and some will prefer them too...

[Richard Rombold]

I agree Kevan. It sounds ridiculous to most, but if the quality is there perceptions will change. There is much that the Japanese do well, but there is room for improvement. It is important that we as breeders respect and learn from the Japanese, but not try to be Japanese ourselves. They have many generations of tradition which will always be the base from which we build, but where we go from there needs to be unique if there is to be any lasting value or contribution. I think the initial question posed by this thread was the relative quality of domestic breeders as compared to the Japanese. The answer now is that it is fair to poor, but steadily improving.

[PapaBear]

The marketplace determines supply, demand, and QUALITY, and that spells good things for the future in my book.
How easy is it to get into Koi keeping (even if you start out with cheap mutts from Arkansas) and remain satisfied with low quality? For most of us time drives us higher up the quality ladder, and that is good news for good breeders. Our first Koi were a mixed bag of freebies, and we thought they were all beautiful. We found out over time what beautiful Koi REALLY look like, and our wet pets were viewed differently. While we remained attached to them on a sentimental level we came to realize they were mostly poor quality and we wanted better, and the quest for better began. I think that's how it is for many, and that is where reputable breeders have the opportunity to gain ground. For people like us, tomorrows Koi WILL be better than yesterdays.
For the Japanese and Domestic breeders both there is a constant struggle to move the hobby forward, constantly improving techniques, quality traits, size, finish, color depth and definition. Just like Honda and the original cars they exported (Japans vehicular version of Arkansas Koi), much has changed. Demands for better resulted in their becoming one of the most popular mfg. in the U.S. market, but they lost their asses for a few years while they re-built their reputation, but they kept their eye on "tomorrow".
Safety issues is what Kicked Honda's butt in the early days, and that will also play a huge role in the Koi marketplace of tomorrow. The low rent breeders both here and abroad who peddle sickly, diseased fish will either clean up their act, or get shoved out of the marketplace. Those who maintain high standards will rise to the top, and the hobby will be much the better for it.

[ppp]

Thanks everyone for your responses, I have learnt much. To be honest, I felt embarassed for starting this thread a few days after I did, as I realised there was a similar (well responded) thread on this forum about 18 months ago. My apologies for not searching before starting the thread. Anyway, I was glad that there was still a decent number of responses, and people in general had new things to add. Things are constantly changing and moving in this hobby, and even "koi bibles" written 10 yrs ago may be half outdated by now!