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Thread: Bead filter question

  1. #21
    Tosai
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    One of the reasons why the Ultima system is also somewhat appealing is that a store in Hawaii has them for sale, which will remove the need for me to pay for excessive shipping to Hawaii. As far as the pumps go, they seem slightly smaller so shipping may be slightly less painful, however that same store sales aqua wave pumps I believe. On it, it said Lim I think...anyway, it seems that they aren't self priming like the artesian, and the store salesman claimed them to be high efficiency, although I haven't heard much about those otherwise. Anyone else have any thoughts about the pumps?

    So right now it seems that the advice summed up would be to get 2 ultimas (4ks? expensive but probably worth the money)
    Use 1 for my BDs and one for the skimmer.

    And it seems a vortex chamber seems to be highly advisable.

    Any suggestions on bio filtration? I've read quite a bit about K1 media, but I'm not sure what type of setup I would use to use that media. Also seems like lots of aeration in the Bio filtration chamber is good, as well as aerated BD seems to also be somewhat helpful. I'm not too sure how the aerated BD is plumbed together, so if anyone has a pretty clear explanation of that I'd appreciate it.

    Anyway, thanks everyone for the great advice, I need to start zoning in on my system, so I can figure out what kind of budget I'm going to need for the project.

    Thanks again!

    Regards,
    Kelsey

  2. #22
    Jumbo farne230's Avatar
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    My experience with three professional pro "artesian" A75 Low RPM pumps is they are not quiet. Not sure what true quiet is regarding pumps,, but as expressed here it seam some you can not hear unless your right on top of it. Mine you can hear much farther away. Infact after twisting the arms of the PP rep did get a new motor for one. This did not qiet the pump. I was not impressed with the representatives at PP, My pumps were less then 6 months old when we asked our contractor and PP rep to fix the problem. Keep in mind this is only one example.... Also sizing the filtration units is very important. Always purchase as large a unit as possilbe, you will not be disappointed, also presurized vortex's, not real happy with them. I believe the flow rate is much to high for most units on the market. These units are also pricey. I have two units and when I check them out they have some coarse material on the bottoms but not what I would suspect. If you can incorporate settlement units you will be ahead of the game IMO.

  3. #23
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    I would get a 6ks ultima since there is no such thing as over filtering and you can use it later if you decided to build a bigger pond. for a 2.5K gals pond, you can do it with 1 BD. btw, never heard of "aerated BD" so not sure how it's done either.

    you can take Mike's advices on the pumps. he does this stuff for living so he knows what's talking about. if you can get something for less and does the same thing as Artisian, then why not?

    btw, are you planning to put in a UV light?

    Steve

    Quote Originally Posted by kohospam View Post
    One of the reasons why the Ultima system is also somewhat appealing is that a store in Hawaii has them for sale, which will remove the need for me to pay for excessive shipping to Hawaii. As far as the pumps go, they seem slightly smaller so shipping may be slightly less painful, however that same store sales aqua wave pumps I believe. On it, it said Lim I think...anyway, it seems that they aren't self priming like the artesian, and the store salesman claimed them to be high efficiency, although I haven't heard much about those otherwise. Anyone else have any thoughts about the pumps?

    So right now it seems that the advice summed up would be to get 2 ultimas (4ks? expensive but probably worth the money)
    Use 1 for my BDs and one for the skimmer.

    And it seems a vortex chamber seems to be highly advisable.

    Any suggestions on bio filtration? I've read quite a bit about K1 media, but I'm not sure what type of setup I would use to use that media. Also seems like lots of aeration in the Bio filtration chamber is good, as well as aerated BD seems to also be somewhat helpful. I'm not too sure how the aerated BD is plumbed together, so if anyone has a pretty clear explanation of that I'd appreciate it.

    Anyway, thanks everyone for the great advice, I need to start zoning in on my system, so I can figure out what kind of budget I'm going to need for the project.

    Thanks again!

    Regards,
    Kelsey

  4. #24
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Bay Area, CA
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    I would get a 6ks ultima since there is no such thing as over filtering and you can use it later if you decided to build a bigger pond. for a 2.5K gals pond, you can do it with 1 BD. btw, never heard of "aerated BD" so not sure how it's done either.

    you can take Mike's advices on the pumps. he does this stuff for living so he knows what's talking about. if you can get something for less and does the same thing as Artisian, then why not?

    btw, are you planning to put in a UV light?

    Steve

    Quote Originally Posted by kohospam View Post
    One of the reasons why the Ultima system is also somewhat appealing is that a store in Hawaii has them for sale, which will remove the need for me to pay for excessive shipping to Hawaii. As far as the pumps go, they seem slightly smaller so shipping may be slightly less painful, however that same store sales aqua wave pumps I believe. On it, it said Lim I think...anyway, it seems that they aren't self priming like the artesian, and the store salesman claimed them to be high efficiency, although I haven't heard much about those otherwise. Anyone else have any thoughts about the pumps?

    So right now it seems that the advice summed up would be to get 2 ultimas (4ks? expensive but probably worth the money)
    Use 1 for my BDs and one for the skimmer.

    And it seems a vortex chamber seems to be highly advisable.

    Any suggestions on bio filtration? I've read quite a bit about K1 media, but I'm not sure what type of setup I would use to use that media. Also seems like lots of aeration in the Bio filtration chamber is good, as well as aerated BD seems to also be somewhat helpful. I'm not too sure how the aerated BD is plumbed together, so if anyone has a pretty clear explanation of that I'd appreciate it.

    Anyway, thanks everyone for the great advice, I need to start zoning in on my system, so I can figure out what kind of budget I'm going to need for the project.

    Thanks again!

    Regards,
    Kelsey

  5. #25
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Sep 2005
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    2,352
    Kelsey

    Please re-read post #11. In it, I included two web addresses. The first has a REALLY GOOD bottom drain with built on air diffuser that he manufactures himself. They're much cheaper than the Spindrifter or any other out there at this time. We just installed 3 on the current job we're working on. It's a 20,000 gal system, very high end. So, if we believe in them that much, it's worth you taking a look. Also, both web sites provide various pump maker and model specs for you to compare. I've heard the same thing as Farne stated about the noise of the Artesians. Check out the Evolution Series pumps listed at the fancy koi outlet site. We've installed them on several ponds and they are VERY quiet with great performance. Cost is less than the competitive Lim Wave/Dragon pumps. By the way, if your pump/s are installed below pond level, you don't need a self-priming pump. You only need a self primer if the pump is installed above water level. Leaf traps are usually $40-$50 more. The difference in cost is not that much. The self priming pumps are considerably more pricey up front.

    Here's and example: An Evolution Series pump model ESE4500 produces 4650gph at 4' of head. Retail cost is $399.95. FKO's price is $309. Add a leaf trap for $44 more. Cost is: $353 plus shipping and tax.

    The Evolution series ESS 5200 is self-priming, produces 5200gph @ 5' head. It includes a built in leaf trap(bigger than the standard ones). Cost @FKO is $490 plus tax and shipping.

    Also check out the amperage/wattage for the pumps, whichever you're comparing. Initial cost of a pump may sound attractive but you have to take in the cost of running it 24/7 over a year to see if it's what you want.

    For a pond of 2500 gallons, here's what I would recommend. For the main pump system drawing from a bottom drain to vortex: Aqua Ultima 4000, Evolution Series ESE4500, to a moving bed Kaldnes1 bio filter. For the skimmer circuit you could use a Aqua Ultima 2000, Evolution Series ESE3500. Put your U.V. Light after the filter and you can get away with a 40 watt uv. That's more than enough for a 2500 gal. system. I would use gravity from the bio tank to feed your waterfall and the skimmer line to run the two tpr's. Plan a large enough waterfall to handle about 3000 gallons per hour. You really don't lose that much head pressure with the Ultima filter. It's not like a traditional "bead" filter.

    Mike

  6. #26
    Tategoi
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    People worry too much about redundancy and have a poor understanding of it.

    Redundancy should be value added, not installed because Ďeverybody does ití. I had a circuit breaker trip while I was on vacation once. The lady watching the pond called me to ask what she should do. I didnít want her to reset the breaker because I didnít know how long the system had been down. My stocking wasnít out of proportion so I told her to stop feeding and I would be home in about a week. Every thing turned out fine so redundancy, in this case, wouldnít have added enough value to make a big deal over.

    Do we need a second filter running while the systems down for routine maintenance? Not at all. In a properly stocked pond, the time spent on maintenance ( a day or so.)wonít create a problem. If you plan to operate a pond heavily stocked, why are you trying to bother with getting everything else right.

    You can look at Donís suggestion of using a single pump (or two smaller pumps) to operate into a single bead filter. That will be a slight value added configuration in that you can keep the system operational if a pump goes out. It will also allow you to turn one off if you occasionally sell off or kill(been there, done that!) enough koi that your filtration needs go down. You should try to balance the bottom drains by sizing the pipe sized if the two runs arenít similar (one short run to the vortex and a longer run from further away). Valves can be used to fine tune them later.

    The skimmer circuit should be able to gravity flow in the same manner as the bottom drains even though it will be directly to the suction side of the pump. Very few hobbyists and even contractors understand this and the line from the sump has to be valved off so far that the pump isnít operating efficiently at all. I recommend at least the same size pipe as the bottom drains. Itís much more effective to shut down the skimmer line a little than a bottom drain line a lot. Also try to get a ĎTí that has the side entry at a 45 instead of a 90. Thereís a huge difference in water flowing straight thru compared to the water entering from the side and the 45 entry will drop that in half.

    The bottom drain lines and, in this case, the skimmer line/s should be sized to flow at less than 2í/sec to accommodate for gravity flow. You will get lots of deposits in the bottom drain lines, at that flow, and a common routine for a well designed gravity flow bottom drain line is to purge it at least once a week. Thatís done by dumping your sump and allowing the full flow thru the lines when refilling the sump. The waste entering the skimmer will be lighter than water so it wonít tend to deposit in the line.

    Most of the time a pump thatís noisy from the start is installed improperly. Our pumps have plastic housings that will flex if the connecting lines have to be moved a little to connect to the pump. That misaligns the bearings and you hear vibration noises that will eventually cause the bearings to fail. Isolation fittings will eliminate small alignment problems. A short piece of flex PVC or a Fernwall fitting is usually used to provide the isolation and adjust for small misalignments. There are other problems we can create when installing pumps but our small, low speed pumps are very forgiving.

    The two pumps Mike is suggesting have very low heads. If you run a bead filter and a waterfall you will easily create more head than the pump can efficiently handle and the flow can drop off enough to degrade the filter systemís effectiveness. The pump should be selected after the rest of the system is laid out so you know the total head at the flow youíve designed the pump to work with. Then select the pump that has itís BEP (Best Efficiency Point) at that point.

  7. #27
    Tategoi moikoi's Avatar
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    mechanical before the bead...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Please note the emphasis on having a vortex settlement stage (or other mechanical filter) before the bead filter. No bead filter does very well unless the larger debris and algae glarf are removed first.
    a must have !!.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bead filter question-koi-12293.jpg  

  8. #28
    Tategoi
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    Yea, I just neglected to mention it. That's why I would bypass the sump and bring the skimmer into the line just before the pump suction.

    There are haoever, well designed screen filters and some bead filters that can automaticly dump several times a day can operate without a sump. I havn't had a chance to play with the Poleyser but I hear they require too high a pressure on the air supply to use the efficient air supply pumps we install in our ponds.

  9. #29
    Tosai
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    Aiea, HI
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    Thanks all for all the great information and quick replies. I'm sorry I haven't been around, work the past couple days has been killer. There's a lot of information here, so I want to make sure that I soak it all in and address all of the advice that was given.

    @Mike-
    I took a look at the two websites that you pointed me to. I looked at the evolution pumps, and it seems that they seem to be fairly reasonable. A couple questions. There's the evolution and the ESS series, and I'm not quite sure what the differences are, other than the ESS seems to start at higher wattages and seems to be pricier. I'm all for getting the same quality for less money, but I just don't want to be stuck with a pump that I regret purchasing 6 months down the road. If you could tell me exactly which models you guys have been using that'd be great.

    Also, I understand the need for vortex settling chambers before entering the bead filter or whatever other mechanical filtration that I choose to use. My questions is how exactly are these made. Is this something that I would make out of a 55gal drum that they use for swimming pools and such, or is this something that I would purchase such as the nexus system.

    At this point in time I'm leaning towards looking into DIY projects in order to create a filtration system. The only reason being that shipping to Hawaii is so killer that it would cost a couple hundred dollars for each of the parts to get them shipped here...To me if I can find products from Lowe's or HD in order to put together the different parts of my filtration system. It seems like right now I would go with something like

    Barrel 1 - Vortex
    Barrel 2 - Static K1
    Barrel 3 - Static/Moving K1 with air (kind of a DIY nexus that I saw on koishack)

    And from the skimmer I would possibly just use 1 barrel with the static/Moving K1

    I would take everyones suggestion in putting 2 pumps to allow for one of go down at some point or at least have a backup system.

    I know that time in the settling chamber is a very important aspect to consider when picking your pump. Can this be compensated for by using a bigger pipe from the BD and out of the vortex.

    And can someone please enlighten me about how vortex chambers are constructed? I know that you want water entering the bottom and exiting the top, with slow flow rates, and ideally the water entering at the bottom would be somewhat tangent to the side to create a vortex effect, beyond this I don't know much about how I would do all this.

    In order to make the whole gravity fed systems easier to work with I was thinking that I will try to make the pond out of concrete and build about 2-3 courses up above the surface of my ground, this would allow me to have a little bit of play when placing my chambers...

    Anyway, this is what I've been trying to figure out, and I know that it's kind of a curveball in terms of the move from bead filters to gravity, but if you guys could keep the advice coming I'd really appreciate it!

    Thanks so much everyone

    Kelsey

  10. #30
    Tosai
    Join Date
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    Aiea, HI
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    To briefly explain my reasoning for changing my what I want to use for my filtration system.

    The main reason why I wanted to use the bead filter is because I thought that I could accomplish a lot in a small package. I thought that in getting that I would be saving room, and extra work for having to put in gravity chambers. But now based on all the suggestions that everyone has been giving me it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong here) that using a properly designed 3 chamber system, could yield very similar results to a votex->bead->bio system would. So the way that I see it is that there are some disadvantages that Michael brought up to using the bead DO in particular. This leaves me to believe that if I can use other filtration systems instead that would yield the same level of ease of use, and potentially save some money in doing it, then it would be a better option for me.

    The general opinion that I seem to be getting here is that. Bead filters although intended to be an all in one system have the following defects.

    1.They don't do very well as biological filters because whenever they get backwashed esp those with blowers a lot of the bio colonies are lost. Also they don't get enough air to become highly effective like moving beds can.

    2. They CAN work as mechanical filters, but do a good job ONLY when a vortex chamber is used in front of them. When the vortex chamber is used in front AND the there is proper settling time i.e. slow enough movement through the chamber it seems to work fine. One other issue however is that because they are pressurized the pump needs to go before the bead filter, thus turning all the koi poo that doesn't get filtered out in the settling chamber into mush, making it harder to filter out.

    Because of this it seems that I could save money and achieve the same if not better results by going into some 3 chamber system that I described earlier in my other post.

    Again, I'm still not sure if the system that I outlined above would actually work, and whether or not it would actually save me money, but I'm hoping that all of you much smarter than me people out there will give me your opinion whether this is actually an improvement over using the Ultima II 4ks or 6ks

    Thanks once again for all your information and help, I truly appreciate it all!

    Kelsey

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