Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Fishbreeder I've been studying koi for over 30 years, Japanese culture for over 40 years, and one lesson I learned is "The lesson of the line." We go to the chalkboard and each draw a horizonal line of equal length. I take the eraser and I erase part of your line making it shorter. Have I increased the length of my line? My momma would have said it like this,"If you haven't something nice to say about somebody, don't say anything at all." None of us can make ourselves look any better by saying bad things (true or not) about our competitors. Hence there is no buncha "He's got the KHV, buy from me with confidence." So, I doubt you will get a lot of tattling in the ranks of koi dealers. Not a protection thing at all. However, silence, can speak volumes. Caveat emptor should be the catch phrase of all koi collectors. If you do not take the time and effort to learn, you will be leaving yourself vulnerable to dishonest dealers, charlatans, carpetbaggers, ignoramouses, and ultimately to the loss of your collection. The AKCA has a mission to teach you, the hobbyist, what you need to know to be a good koikeeper. They have no mission to protect you from your own ignorance, laziness and impulsiveness. Yes indeedy, that is what such a program is trying to do, protect you the hobbyist from your own self, not from bad koi dealers, from your own self. Brett

Well said Brett, the last two paragraphs are so true. As hobbiest it is our responsibilty to learn and educate our selfs.

[mstrseed]

This board is a prime example of those who take pride and are self regulated.
Those who contribute willingly without hawking wares are the "honest self regulating ones".
Go look into the "Outside" section for as Brett states "dishonest dealers, charlatans, carpetbaggers, ignoramuses.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Nancy: Are you suggesting any segment of the dealer community has sought to regulate dealer practices? I am not aware of it.

You don't consider Breeders in japan having to have there fish tested, there facility inspected by there govenrment part of a regulation to benefit the hobbiest? Or the APHIS Vet that inspects each shippment upon arrival, and USDA, Fish & Game part of a regulation to benifit the hobbiest? were at least in California 95% of the "real koi dealers" are now testing there fish? and all have implemented much higher QT regiments? Personally I think that they police there own biz, but not each other, the current regs do that.

[MikeM]

Some very good points by Brett and Nancy in these last posts if you study what they say. It comes down to acknowledging that each dealer is on his own and silence will keep it that way; that each hobbyist is on his own, and a lot folks don't want that to change.

BTW, Nancy, I do think government regulation in Japan has helped, but from all I've heard I'd not consider it reliable against KHV. The disease still pops up among Japanese breeders. And the APHIS stuff seems to be more about paper shuffling than anything else. Isn't that why the good dealers are doing blood tests on imports from Japan? They lack confidence in it themselves.

There are a lot of charlatans. Let's just keep being quiet about them. The alternatives are so inconvenient.

[Nancy M.]

I am curious, with all the upcoming shows, 3 stick out to me as the big ones, CFKC, KCSD,ZNA SoCal. Will any of these clubs, that all belong to AKCA be policing the wet vendors, will they have done back ground checks to make sure these vendors all have tested there fish? and that they implement above reproach bio-security? If the clubs are not willing or going to do a better job in who they allow as wet vendors, at the shows, then why would they expect the "real dealers" to do any more than they already do.. I remember a couple years ago at one show, were there was a vender selling koi per pound, and fish were dieing in front of the spectators. Clubs need to take some responsibility for who they allow at there shows, if these dishonest dealers, charlatans, carpetbaggers, ignoramuses, are not welcome at shows, then less disease and KHV can be spred to us hobbiest. And these morons will be out of bussines much quicker. Also will any of these shows, have seminars on KHV, and QTing fish the proper way? Or on what a real koi pond is? These should be mandatory topics at all shows and koi related events. The hobbiest need to educate them selfs and all the newbies. Just think if all the clubs practice all the above, we as hobbiest would improve our chances of getting KHV free fish and healthier fish by another 50%, add that to what the dealers are already doing, and now are chances of contracting KHV is at a bare minimum.

[MCA]

Why the heck would a club hosting a show take responsbility for the health or business practicies of a vendor???? Talk about a setting yourself for a lawsuit!!!! No way!!!!! Clubs have staffs that are amateur volunteers. Generally that have no time nor recognized expertise to supervise anyone.

A club rents a booth to a vendor. The vendor does business with the public....and NOT as an agent of the club. It is not the responsbility of the club to make sure the vendor is collecting and turning in sales tax ....etc.

You want to purchase from a given vendor....do so. Do NOT look for someone else to protect you or hold you hand if something goes wrong. YOU decide where to spend YOUR money. Vote with your money!!!!!!

The better dealers are not so by accident!!!

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by MCA Why the heck would a club hosting a show take responsbility for the health or business practicies of a vendor???? Talk about a setting yourself for a lawsuit!!!! No way!!!!! Why would a club, allow a vendor to rent a booth, if they are not above reproach? Why would there be a lawsuit, if the club did not have space for certain vendors? Why would AKCA then take the responsibilty for vendors "dealers" business health practices? A club rents a booth to a vendor. The vendor does business with the public....and NOT as an agent of the club. It is not the responsbility of the club to make sure the vendor is collecting and turning in sales tax ....etc. The vendor does bussines with the clubs members and potential members, why would they not want to protect those? In California all vendors "MUST" complete a resale permit form, and tax ID.. Even at the AKCA seminar, dealers are required to do the paperwork with the state. You want to purchase from a given vendor....do so. Do NOT look for someone else to protect you or hold you hand if something goes wrong. YOU decide where to spend YOUR money. Vote with your money!!!!!! I agree The better dealers are not so by accident!!!

I agree, there are always going to be the dishonest dealers, charlatans, carpetbaggers, ignoramuses. But if we as hobiest do are homework and share our knowledge, then we can weed out the bad ones.

[JasPR]

I don't think that your post is supportive enough of what these shows already have done Nancy. It was hard enough convincing old timers that Japanese style was not the way to go any more. And then getting show committee boards to wake up and smell the coffee as far as not letting dealers bring fish directly from their facility to a koi show and then using a customer's tank to exhibit them, was a major hurdle. The progress towards the ultimate koi biosecurity is a long haul as far as perfection goes. But there must be some progress as we have never seen a major amateur show hit by KHV. Compare that to the first Chinese show ( mix of dealers and hobbyist) where most of the fish entered died of virus.

It's pretty simple. A national dealer group ( Shinkokai or any other) must give membership guidelines. The members then all conform. Then if a dealer is NOT a member, then an amateur organization can point out that fact. And members can point to the seal on their shops door that they are indeed a member.
Today, trade organizations like America's Shinkokai have primarily been used to garnish a wholesale distribution chain. That is a one dimensional thinking IMHO. You need to find a Shinkokai head who is politically astute and also one that is more evolved than the average koi dealer. Some one who can grasp the big picture and has the vision to see the overall benefit to his/her business model by taking the lead in building something bigger than the lone wolf mentality of the average koi dealer. Again, IMHO. JR

JR

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I don't think that your post is supportive enough of what these shows already have done Nancy. It was hard enough convincing old timers that Japanese style was not the way to go any more. And then getting show committee boards to wake up and smell the coffee as far as not letting dealers bring fish directly from their facility to a koi show and then using a customer's tank to exhibit them, was a major hurdle. The progress towards the ultimate koi biosecurity is a long haul as far as perfection goes. But there must be some progress as we have never seen a major amateur show hit by KHV. Compare that to the first Chinese show ( mix of dealers and hobbyist) where most of the fish entered died of virus. It's pretty simple. A national dealer group ( Shinkokai or any other) must give membership guidelines. The members then all conform. Then if a dealer is NOT a member, then an amateur organization can point out that fact. And members can point to the seal on their shops door that they are indeed a member. Today, trade organizations like America's Shinkokai have primarily been used to garnish a wholesale distribution chain. That is a one dimensional thinking IMHO. You need to find a Shinkokai head who is politically astute and also one that is more evolved than the average koi dealer. Some one who can grasp the big picture and has the vision to see the overall benefit to his/her business model by taking the lead in building something bigger than the lone wolf mentality of the average koi dealer. Again, IMHO. JR JR

I agree Jim, That the clubs and shows have taken big leaps in changing how it use to be. But I also think that the "reputable dealers" have also taken great leaps in koi health.

I see so many hobbiest blaming this dealer and that dealer for there fish deaths. But when you finally get the whole story, the hobbiest is a newbie, and they bought 10 fish from 4 different dealers over the weekend, and they put all those new ones right into the pond, or mixed them all in there qt tank. Now which dealer will they blame?

I was merely trying to point out that Clubs cannot police there vendors, and AKCA should not be policing the dealers.

Dealers need there own organization weather it is shinkokai or another, to set policys and procedures for dealers to follow, it is not the hobbiest or hobbiest organizations duty or bussines to involve them selfs in it.

Quote: MikeM Some very good points by Brett and Nancy in these last posts if you study what they say. It comes down to acknowledging that each dealer is on his own and silence will keep it that way; that each hobbyist is on his own, and a lot folks don't want that to change. There are a lot of charlatans. Let's just keep being quiet about them. The alternatives are so inconvenient.

Mike M.
How many hobbiest do you know that would come out and talk about there fellow hobbiest or member of there club, that said person is stuppid and that he does not Qt properly? Or how many hobbiest are going to come out and publicly say that said dealer is a rip off, and sells sick fish?

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by MCA Why the heck would a club hosting a show take responsbility for the health or business practicies of a vendor???? Talk about a setting yourself for a lawsuit!!!! No way!!!!! Clubs have staffs that are amateur volunteers. Generally that have no time nor recognized expertise to supervise anyone. A club rents a booth to a vendor. The vendor does business with the public....and NOT as an agent of the club. It is not the responsbility of the club to make sure the vendor is collecting and turning in sales tax ....etc. You want to purchase from a given vendor....do so. Do NOT look for someone else to protect you or hold you hand if something goes wrong. YOU decide where to spend YOUR money. Vote with your money!!!!!! The better dealers are not so by accident!!!

Just a note to mention a show that does police, do background checks, and KNOWS each and every wet vendor.

The TKFGS Show in San Antonio does just that.

Last show, in October, wet vendors were Me, Vance, Sam Pearson and our friends from Louisiana (can't remember the name of the otufit). All of us veterans of this show, none of us has ever been stricken by a virus (knock on wood) and all of us selling our own, bred in the USA, koi.

In the last several years they've kept a close watch on wet vendors at the show and there have been no problems.

Brett