Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Fishbreeder Howdy Steve, I am under so many "government programs" now I don;t see how another will make a difference. I understdn the gooberment is going to have thier nasty fingers in my pie. I got no choice. What I've problems with is that now the AKCA is in a huge power grab that will result in things as bad or far worse than the gooberment's meddling. Lets me see now....BHP say we all gotta buy Isreali vaccine. BHP says we all gotta buy a particular brand of disinfectant. BHP says we gotta all do this, that and the other thing. When that happens, it is a slippery slope indeed. It is power that is at stake, the power of control over the trade in koi. No hobby organization should have such power (other than the traditional means such as boycott). How many CARREER fish culturists are on the BHP board? How about CARREER fish dealers? One thing to get a buncha well educated folks together, another to get a buncha well experienced folks. For me, it takes both. No vet is going to understand the day to day grind of a fish farm or fish shop like the person that lives it does. Without the "man in the tenches", humint, if you will, the program will be rife with holes and pitfalls. Yep, voluntary, but do not participate and you are going to be an outcast. What happens when (and it will be "when" and not "if") KHV fish are sold from a BHP certified facility? And its not the US gooberment we should be concerned with. It is the FAO that can and possibly will, stop the trade in koi. Nothing to do with folks getting cheated out of thier money or saddened by the loss of some pets. Everything to do with food sources for Third World people that depend on carp production for thier very survival, not for thier entertainment. Food for billions or expensive pets for a few rich folks in the Western World. Which do you beleive the FAO will choose? I do beleive we need to do something. But regulating the koi trade is a bit much for a hobby group to undertake. OTOH, there is the power of the written word. AKCA through KoiUSA does indeed have the power to shed light into the darkness. They refuse to use it in the name of political correctness and vested interests. EDUCATE your members. EXPOSE charlatans. Use the power already at your disposal. I do beleive we need a way to ferret out the charlatans from the "real" thing. It is as much an ethical as a biological issue. Unethical purveyors of koi need to be exposed as such, no matter how big an ad they buy. I've other ideas as to how such an august group as has been compiled by the BHP program could be put to effective use without trampling on the folks who are in business. But for another post. I have tremendous respect for the AKCA, and am thankfull for thier years and years of service to the koi collecting community, but I fear this thing (BHP) might change all that, and not for the better. Brett

Brett, there, as typical, not many factual points of yours that I disagree with. That being said, there are points you make that are not necessarily factual either. The BHP is simply a "BETA" program and according to Spike's post subject to change based upon INPUT from participants. The is no mention of otstrasizing non participants either. As a businessman myself, I also agree that a program to have teeth it must also be economically feasible. Issues such as these that may (or may not) exist in the Beata program must have that input mentioned previously by those who know...the dealers/breeders.

I have heard almost nothing but complaints concerning this program from the proffesional sector and to my knowledge (which is of course limited as I am not involved) and little in the way of actaul participation or improvement suggestions. Everyone knows that there is a problem that needs to be addressed yet few are attempting to do anything about it on an organized scale and even fewer are attempting to become involved with those that are attempting to do something? I would suggest that this gives off an even more negative appearance to end consumers than the non participation to begin with.

Another personal perception of mine is that those who are vocally against the program are for the most part those same people who I believe do the best jobs in this area and could offer the most to the program in perfecting such for the benefit of all.

If their are "issues" within the program, offer solutions to go along with the critisisms. Just my personal opinion to all.

Oh, and on the subject of the AKCA and KOI USA? Hmm, as I read KOI USA, I see many, many, many articles on the subject of KHV, QT etc. I also see many programs by the AKCA in educating as well. As for "exposing charlitans"? I would "almost" bet that the editor would review any submissions (as I believe is done with all submissions) in this area and if legally sound include such. The problem then becomes someone getting those legally defensible facts and submitting such. To date, I personally have not seen such reporting from non involved individuals.

Then, as a hobbyist I would also have to ask myself what useful purpose would that exposure serve? Punishment? To who? The dealer involved? The dealer who's business is most likely already financially crippled? Or to serve as notice to other dealers that they too could be "exposed" if they were to act in a similar fashion? Hmmmmmmm, so Brett, you recommendation would seem to be "threatening through disclosure" verses complaints about non participation in the BHP program that you (and others) could help modify/create?

I think too many emotions are coming into play verses honest interaction and problem solving. buy hey....just an outsiders personal view.

Steve

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Brett, there, as typical, not many factual points of yours that I disagree with. That being said, there are points you make that are not necessarily factual either. The BHP is simply a "BETA" program and according to Spike's post subject to change based upon INPUT from participants. The is no mention of otstrasizing non participants either. As a businessman myself, I also agree that a program to have teeth it must also be economically feasible. Issues such as these that may (or may not) exist in the Beata program must have that input mentioned previously by those who know...the dealers/breeders. I have heard almost nothing but complaints concerning this program from the proffesional sector and to my knowledge (which is of course limited as I am not involved) and little in the way of actaul participation or improvement suggestions. Everyone knows that there is a problem that needs to be addressed yet few are attempting to do anything about it on an organized scale and even fewer are attempting to become involved with those that are attempting to do something? I would suggest that this gives off an even more negative appearance to end consumers than the non participation to begin with. Another personal perception of mine is that those who are vocally against the program are for the most part those same people who I believe do the best jobs in this area and could offer the most to the program in perfecting such for the benefit of all. If their are "issues" within the program, offer solutions to go along with the critisisms. Just my personal opinion to all. Oh, and on the subject of the AKCA and KOI USA? Hmm, as I read KOI USA, I see many, many, many articles on the subject of KHV, QT etc. I also see many programs by the AKCA in educating as well. As for "exposing charlitans"? I would "almost" bet that the editor would review any submissions (as I believe is done with all submissions) in this area and if legally sound include such. The problem then becomes someone getting those legally defensible facts and submitting such. To date, I personally have not seen such reporting from non involved individuals. Then, as a hobbyist I would also have to ask myself what useful purpose would that exposure serve? Punishment? To who? The dealer involved? The dealer who's business is most likely already financially crippled? Or to serve as notice to other dealers that they too could be "exposed" if they were to act in a similar fashion? Hmmmmmmm, so Brett, you recommendation would seem to be "threatening through disclosure" verses complaints about non participation in the BHP program that you (and others) could help modify/create? I think too many emotions are coming into play verses honest interaction and problem solving. buy hey....just an outsiders personal view. Steve

Steve,

You make sense.

Issue...intrusive methodology.

Suggestion. Send an inspector, unannounced and unknown to the dealer, breeder, shop, etc. Have the inspector take notes and observe. Then after many such inspections have identified similar problematic situations at several locals, develop answers and offer assistance to the businesses involved in the form of suggestions and education.

Fund it in house, not by charging businesses who are already on the brink.

I am not sure about dealers, but the farm gate price for koi, here and in Japan, has not risen significantly in ten years. Meanwhile, energy costs have quadrupled, labor doubled, repairs, new equipment costs, pond rent, water, fish food, everything has risen trmendously. Nobody needs anymore financial burdens.

Issue....AKCA members insisting on buying koi from unreliable sources because they get "good deals."

Suggestion. Remind the membership that the quality of a good purchase lasts long. Continue to teach them about how to buy a koi, the right way. And I'm not talking about "how to pick a tosai."

Issue....lack of disclosure post infection.

Suggestion. Yes, punish those that try to sweep the problem under the rug by identifying them. Especially if they knowingly sent out KHV infected fish. Investigate the potential for legal action.

I got more......

No doubt that KoiUSA has done a good job and continues to do so with respect to infomring its readers. For me that is the bright spot. Dissemination of good information.

Now, I do not wish to be an impediment and I do wish to help any way I can. I just cannot bear anymore regulatory pressure from anywhere. If it comes, I will shut my operation down.

Brett

[schildkoi]

Now you're cooking Brett. That disclosure thing is a sticky wickett though.

See ya soon.

Steve

[MysticKoi]

Quote: If their are "issues" within the program, offer solutions to go along with the critisisms. Just my personal opinion to all.

Steve... of course you're correct. However, and I say it again, this works both ways. The program will be designed for dealers, but aside from an initial feasability survey, the dealer community was not given an opportunity to participate. Aparently, our role is to be "test cases" so that the final system can be tweaked prior to implementation. Hmmm... I guess this fact isn't suprising, since "dealers can't agree on what time the sun comes up" anyway.

And besides, there isn't yet anything to be critical about, as all that exists for review by dealers is an outline!

Kind Regards,
Bill

[JasPR]

Absolutely Bill. And what the amateurs do not take into consideration is that they are messing with your livelihood. Playing at being a regulatory agency is pretty over the top for a bunch of amateurs like ourselves. I find it meddlesome and kinda embarrassing, speaking for the silent majority in the hobby. But that is just me.
If I was asked for input I would have suggested a panel be formed of three regionally elected dealers and three amateur koi politicians. From there, I would have drafted a missions statement. But then again, that's just me.
HAH, I've formatted this for easy copy/paste for the email you are no doubt drafting---
JR

[bekko]

This all reminds me of the Marine Aquarium Council's move to certify marine aquarium fish which are collected or cultured with environmentally sustainable practices. Marine Aquarium Council developed their standards and expected peer-pressure within the industry would make all the producers and dealers come on board. Didn't happen. Instead, every producer and dealer along the supply chain has come up with their own song-and-dance about how they have successfully addressed the sustainability issue. If questioned by a customer, each producer and dealer can tell you what is wrong with the Marine Aquarium Council program and why their individual approach is better.

At this moment in time, the Marine Aquarium Council is in danger of collapsing and dissolving. Their certification program is shunned. But, in a round-about way they are accomplishing their mission. They have raised awareness and the sustainability issue is being addressed - albeit, in an ad hoc sort of way.

-steve

[MCA]

Maybe one of ground level issues is there does not seem to any professional organzation that does substantially represent the breeder/dealer community...at least in North America. Yes there is a local Shinkokai district. As I remember they have ~15 members. And while that represent a significant amount of higher end dealers, it does not represent them all. And of course it no way represents the petstores or backyard dealers.

Usually professional organzaitons happen due to some combination of positive and negative pressures/threads. Is KHV enough to galvanize the pros into a single org that respresents most of them? I guess only time will tell. If so, it is that org that should produce standards for their profession.......in the same way as the Bar Assoociations govern lawyers and the AMA does Doctors.

[JasPR]

Steve, your not telling the entire story however? It was the Robinson driven organization that lead the charge. What happened to 'him' and the validity of that initial program? Remember?
This situation is Soo different than chinese merchants giving cyanide to the locals for fish collection and then taking money for net collecting- it just no longer becomes an analogy.
awareness? what the hell does THAT mean? The person buying the already 'dead fish swimming' hasn't a clue the fish has been collected with deadly poison and is swimminga round with no internal function organs other than gills and a heart. So awareness is NOT education.
Educating the beginenr marine hobbyist to the fish to avoid, the signs of cyanide posioning, the right questions to ask the dealer and the request to hold the fish for two weeks with a small deposit are the ways to go.
This is more about power and politics than it is education. By the way, did Robinson ever go to jail or pay back the missing monies?


JR

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR If I was asked for input I would have suggested.......

I like that

.......that they turn the whole thing over to the US Shinkokai and American Breeders Assoc. and let them tweak it and implement it. Afterall its their best interest more then the AKCA's.

[bekko]

James, the American Marinelife Dealers Assoc. was Steve Robinson's organization. AMDA is driven by the profit motive while MAC, ostensibly, is concerned with the marine environment. This is not to say that Robinson and Ireland do not deserve credit for being the first to generate "awareness" of the cyanide issue.

But my point here is that the producers and dealers have been reluctant to sign on with a program that is not of their own making.

-steve