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Thread: Dead Fish

  1. #11
    Daihonmei
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    and a person selling a car should never fib about the condition of the transmission or the true number of miles on the broken odometer--- but they do!

    I think I'll mentioned this for the 300th time? If you belong to a koi club, ask one of the experienced members to come along with you to the koi shop if you are about to buy a koi, especially a 'serious' koi. You then have an advisor, a sounding board and a witness!
    Some one who is experienced can see a fish's behavior and interprete what certain behaviors mean better than a newbie.

    Lastly, don't be so quick to blame a dealer for the death of a koi. Very often it is the buyer's pond water or 'hospital tank' that is responsible for putting a fish currently on the mend, back over the end. A dealer that has treated a fish and sees it recoving can easily project that in a week under good conditions the fish will be 100%. Buying such a fish will instantly make the new owner responsible for completing the challenge- if you are not set up for it, or up to it in terms of experience level, pass on the fish, there is always another one.
    If the dealer is liable in this case, it may be because they assumed the same would happen in a new pond that they expected to happen under their care.
    It's been my experience that sometimes the dealer is a weasel but just as often it is an assumption by the new owner that a living thing has a predictable outcome and therefore an implied guarantee. And that is just not predictable. There are always two sides to every story. I guess that's why we need so many 'Judge Judys' in society today?

    If your dealer is reputable, you will get a store credit. JR

  2. #12
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luisb View Post
    I am new to the koi hobby. Is it customary for a dealer to let you take home a sick fish. I was told the fish would get better then it died 4 days later.
    Hi Luisb,

    I know you are NOT a NEW member here...But you have only 3 posts recently...
    So, first, I would like to welcome you to the board. This is one of the great koi board for all levels of koi folks to learn, share, and teach.... So many hornest, smart, and good koi kichies here on this board.

    Second, as Nancy M says: "A reputable dealer, would never sell you a sick fish intentionally, and would never let you (newbies) take it home if they new it was sick." unless there is a good reason that I will mention later in this post.

    Third, since you are newbie as you said. Let me share with you some lesson I got when I first got into this hobby 8 years ago. The first lesson I got from my first koi mentor, Tonio was that "never buy a sick koi, regardless how much you love it". Also, my first lesson from my other Koi Master/Teacher, Grant Fujita, was that "Never bring any sick fish home even you have QT to let it go thru the QT first"

    Fourth, let me share with you this sad story happened to me last year. I bought a very nice and very expensive Kohaku from a reputable dealer, when it arrived at home, it looked very healthy with excellent condition. There was no symptom of any kind at all.... But it die in the second day in my care.... Until today, I still can't figure out what happend....

    Fifth, It is sad to see a reputable dealer to let you as a newbie to take the sick fish home. It is more sad that, you have a great painting from one of the Koi Master, Grant Fujita here in Bay Area and also heard that he will start a study group here as you posted in your first post here. But did not have a chance to learn the basic lession form the Koi Master Grant as I did in the past when I just was a very very "newbie".... Perhaps, you can join a local koi club or visit here more often to learn more about koi and how to taking care of koi....

    Sixth, do you have QT? Did you take your fish home and place it on your QT or direct to your pond? Also, can you share with us about your pond specifications... conditions of your water. How many koi in your pond before bring this sick fish home? BTW, I am Dinh, I am here in San Jose, if you are not to far away, you can visit my pond and I hope to visit your pond sometime - IM or email me Luis.

    Carolinagirl.... "Steve I disagree. A dealer should NEVER send home a sick with anone, no matter what the conversation was. That's just bad business." I knew few people here in California bought sick koi for their research. I helped some folks here in NorCal to look and buy sick koi for their KHV and SVC research. Also, there is other reason as MCA mentioned in his post. So, my dear friend, I am sorry to disagree with you;-))

    Have a very nice day.

    --Dinh
    Last edited by dinh; 01-31-2008 at 10:46 AM.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Nguyen View Post
    depends on the conversation you had with the dealer. without being there, it's hard to determine what was said and who was right.

    as others already pointed out, should never buy a sick fish even with intention to take it home for a treatment. too much risks. not worth the money or effort. I don't even take sick fish home for free let alone buying. whatever you spent on the dead fish, I guess you can think of it as a paid lesson.

    Steve
    I know alot of people have been bringing home sick fish lately even without the fish showing signs of sickness. With that said it is the hobbyists job to always QT....

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    "Fifth, It is sad to see a reputable dealer to let you as a newbie to take the sick fish home".-D

    Of course I agree with this comment Dinh, but I could imagine a situation where an overstocked dealer would want to move a fish out to a better environment after talking to an owner about the size, design, stocking condition and age of their pond. A dealer certainly knows more about the management of stock than an amateur, and infinitely more than a newbie koi keeper. But a dealer does not always have the best conditions due to stocking of different shipments and quarantine demands.
    So although I agree with your comment and general assessment of things regarding a policy of NEVER buying a sick fish or even buying from a tank were other sick fish are evident, I'd really like to know more about the circumstances and conversation before drawing a conclusion on this one? In the end, we do not know if it was an honest judgement call on the dealers part or an attempt at a win-win, to get rid of a sick fish and to make a quick buck at a newbie's expense? Let the buyer beware.
    best, JR

  5. #15
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    "Fifth, It is sad to see a reputable dealer to let you as a newbie to take the sick fish home".-D

    Of course I agree with this comment Dinh, but I could imagine a situation where an overstocked dealer would want to move a fish out to a better environment after talking to an owner about the size, design, stocking condition and age of their pond. A dealer certainly knows more about the management of stock than an amateur, and infinitely more than a newbie koi keeper. But a dealer does not always have the best conditions due to stocking of different shipments and quarantine demands.
    So although I agree with your comment and general assessment of things regarding a policy of NEVER buying a sick fish or even buying from a tank were other sick fish are evident, I'd really like to know more about the circumstances and conversation before drawing a conclusion on this one? In the end, we do not know if it was an honest judgement call on the dealers part or an attempt at a win-win, to get rid of a sick fish and to make a quick buck at a newbie's expense? Let the buyer beware.
    best, JR
    I hear what you say.... we need to get more info from Luis before conclusion for this thread.... To be honest, it seems to me Luis just pop up a legit question in general for discussion... I don't think Luis brought home a sick fish because apprearently Luis knew my Koi Master well....Luis can't miss that basic lesson........

    --Dinh

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Right, but Grant is an old style dealer. Those old style dealers were true professionals and took, as part of their job description, a responsibility for the individual fish. It was more of a 'relationship' business that Grant operated in. Today's koi dealer is more of a transactional business person. And this mentality fits better with today's consumer. Let's face it, there is very little loyality left in today's world. It is a consumer world now. So a dealer like Grant no longer will reap the loyality and attention span from a consumer who may take his information and then go down the road and buy from a guy that is $50 cheaper. The consumer of today wants it both ways- very best price and perfect, extensive advise and service. There is no such thing on this earth of course but that is the mentality of the day. You either shop for price OR service after the sale. And anyone who expects both is unrealistic. IMHO JR

  7. #17
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Very good thread/discussion, guys! First of all, Luis, welcome to the KB forum! I, like you, am fairly new to the hobby, and one of the first things I learned from my "masters" is to never buy a sick koi. To this date, I never have and I never will. In fact, sometimes I use this to test the reputation of a dealer: I would look at a sick koi at the dealer's facility and ask them if they would sell me the koi.

  8. #18
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    As a hobbyist we should learn the art of "observing".

    The hobbyist should have observed the condition the fish is in. If he felt the fish was in subpar condition he should have asked questions.

  9. #19
    Jumbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Right, but Grant is an old style dealer. Those old style dealers were true professionals and took, as part of their job description, a responsibility for the individual fish. It was more of a 'relationship' business that Grant operated in. Today's koi dealer is more of a transactional business person. And this mentality fits better with today's consumer. Let's face it, there is very little loyality left in today's world. It is a consumer world now. So a dealer like Grant no longer will reap the loyality and attention span from a consumer who may take his information and then go down the road and buy from a guy that is $50 cheaper. The consumer of today wants it both ways- very best price and perfect, extensive advise and service. There is no such thing on this earth of course but that is the mentality of the day. You either shop for price OR service after the sale. And anyone who expects both is unrealistic. IMHO JR
    The inter-net is providing something that 'short circuit' the way koi business transacts. Now anyone can get a lot of advices on boards like KB, and experts like JR, for free, on koi costing up to $100K. In all cases, the advices are hell of lot more objective than one you can get from a dealer. Like JR said, most dealers today are transcator, $$$ is the target, not the koi. Since they can't provide unbiased advices, they can't charge us for that.

    stan

  10. #20
    Oyagoi
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    Turned down a $500 sale of perfectly well koi last Saturday.

    By the time I was able to figure out what the potential customers had to say about thier pond, I knew I couldn't, in good concience, send any fish home with them. Mostly of because of where my shop is (not far from town, but in the rural Texan coastal community), but also because of the nature of the thing (koi), sometimes the language barrier becomes an issue. Now I can fudge along pretty good in Spanish, word or two in related stuff like Portugeuse, an' even a coupla words of Japanese. But I can't speak no Chinese, Cambodian, Vietnamese, and most especially Cajunese. Fortunately for me most all of them can speak English. But that ain't all easy, either. The "English" I speak ain't nuthin' like what one of those fellers from Pakistan talks. Sad thing is, all them others can unnerstan him better'n me.

    At any rate, these folk's fish pond wasn't right, the fish were acting wrong and laying on the bottom, etc. They had no idea of water quality, just "Not to change the water because it will kill the fish." No idea how big, filters, etc.

    These folks ready to drop five bills one me, and Lord only knows I need 'em, an' I just can't close the deal. I do, and it will be the only time. I'll make my five Benjamins and the fish'll die, and I'll never see these folks again.

    Now, if I can get them to come back with photos of the pond, of the fish in it, of the filters, and a water sample, etc. I might make koi collectors out of them and repeat customers. Ones that spend $1500 every visit instead of $500. The one language we all communicate real good in is moolah. And the one thing everybody understands is customer service.

    Brett
    Brett

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