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Thread: Momotaro Sanke vs McCann Sanke

  1. #1
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Momotaro Sanke vs McCann Sanke

    I have a number of Sanke who summer in the mud in New Jersey, but until now I've not had any worthy of note in my pond. Now that my pond is entering its fourth year, I have gotten enough confidence to change that. These two gals have arrived this month. Both are nisai and both are very close in size. One is from Momotaro (22" measured yesterday)and one from Nisei Koi Farm (22.25" measured yesterday). Each has a heavy dose of Matsunosuke genetics, but spiced up in different ways. One is magoi-blooded. I very much like both. We'll see how they progress.

    Nov. '08 correction: The NKF Sanke was hatched in 2005, so she was sansai. I regret my error, but it makes me feel less confused, since she was a little longer but did not have the body structure for growth like the somewhat smaller Momotaro Sanke.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Momotaro Sanke vs McCann Sanke-eyepatch-22in-jan08-nisai.jpg   Momotaro Sanke vs McCann Sanke-cfks-2008-351.jpg   Momotaro Sanke vs McCann Sanke-momotaro-sanke-8-1-8-08_edited.jpg  
    Last edited by MikeM; 11-28-2008 at 09:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Very, very nice Mike. It's gonna be fun to watch those two grow -- and to compare their progress.

    Know you'll have a ton of fun as the months and years roll by.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Mike , Since you have seen both Sanke in person , would you care to share your thoughts about what you think the future mite hold for these two girls ?

  4. #4
    Oyagoi
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    You gonna take 'em to a show and have 'em evaluated???

    Very nice koi.

    I've found up to about size four, its pretty easy to raise koi that beat what the Japanese send over here. Past that it becomes really tough.

    I see it show after show with many of the better domestically bred koi. American bred koi consistently beating Japanese bred koi up to about size four.

    I done figured it out too. We (domestic breeders) are constantly forced to sell our best specimens "early" (before JR's "sale date") and for less money. Some of these end up in koi shows against nice Japanese koi that were sold "on time". The better bred domestic koi wins against the lesser Japanese koi (as it should).

    Also, the Japanese breeders been at a it longer and have a better handle on which koi to sell when. Many domestic breeders make the mistake of not recognizing the very high grade fish and selling it off instead of keeping it to sell later.

    My halfway edumacated guess is that Matt's koi was sold too soon.

    Keep us posted.

    Brett
    Brett

  5. #5
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    Hi Mike-

    How can both fish have Matsunosuke blood but only one fish have magoi blood?

  6. #6
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Troy, they are very different fish. Only the sex, length and age are alike.

    The Momotaro has the bone structure to become huge. My guess is that she will be the larger of the two with a body shape more like the traditional Matsunosuke... rather cigar-shaped. She has quite a way to go. In the photo she may seem to be more finished in her pigment than the McCann Sanke, but it is a different sort of pigment. There is a sparkle in her scales.

    The McCann Sanke is pale due to very immature pigment. She is magoi lineage, which can be seen in her backbone and how she carries her abdomen. She has a more graceful movement. Her strongest feature is her skin. There is a translucent quality. The Beni almost looks like it is rising from below the way Sumi does. It is easy to overlook her as being too pale. I think that will change over the next two years.

    The two give very different impressions. ... BTW, the title to the thread is a bit of a joke. There is no competition between these two. Just two nice, but very different Sanke that are fun to compare.

  7. #7
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I enjoyed Brett's comments and share his summation on the koi and the situation of what's going on with our better domestic breeders versus the japanese. A few years ago I was able to "figure" this out. Right now as I type half of my stock is from domestic breeders. Not cause I'm walking the middle ground, but because i want to keep both feet planted in reality which I share in my seminars....

  8. #8
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    .

    The McCann Sanke is pale due to very immature pigment. She is magoi lineage, which can be seen in her backbone and how she carries her abdomen. She has a more graceful movement. Her strongest feature is her skin. There is a translucent quality. The Beni almost looks like it is rising from below the way Sumi does. It is easy to overlook her as being too pale. I think that will change over the next two years.

    Mike
    Skin quality is a big factor on the price of koi ,but surprisingly few seem to pay much attention . At the show Kevin Pham brought a few fish that were high priced just because of the skin quality . The Sanke had that thick milkey and shinny skin did you by ant chance get a look at her ? Is that what you are seeing on Matts sanke . I put aside 3 Matsonasuke sanke males to study and possible breeding and now at 4 years the shirro is getting better all the time and the hidden summi is comeing through . If there are no shows here then watching the fish develop is just as much fun
    Regards
    Eugene

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Hmmm. I was diverted when replying to Troy and did not see Brett & MikeP's posts. I think you're right, Brett. Mat has some he has held back. But he can't keep everything. Both Sanke will be shown eventually, but cannot say when. I often take fish to CFKS just so their progress can be observed by the dealer or breeder from whom I got them. However, a couple of better fish have not been shown simply because they are not ready. (May never be ready!... I know, Dick. Gotta be patient.)

    MikeP: Sakai has a Magoi-based line he has kept separate. The McCann Sanke is out of the oyagoi Mat calls the 'Rental Sanke', which came from Sakai's Magoi line. Mat tells a good story about how he got to 'rent' her. You'll need to ask him at the Louisville show. (I think he will be there.)

    Eugene: Yes, Kevin brought some nice ones. I wish he would take a booth at the tent edge where the light is best, but he prefers the middle to minimize leaves and such. ...It is difficult for me to describe the shiroji on the McCann Sanke. Dick refers to skim milk, and that comes pretty close. I get the feeling that she would bruise easily. The Momotaro Sanke is different, but has excellent shiroji.

  10. #10
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    I'm still confused because Matsunosuke is a magoi based line. Are you making a distinction because the "magoi" was used much later than Sakai's original Matsunosuke? In other words, does it have to do with how many generations back you have to go to trace the magoi breeding?

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