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Thread: Judging Koi: "On The Day" vs "Quality"

  1. #11
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    I don't remember the fish in question as being Steve's fish but I do remember a kohaku with strong "hoshi" which to me was distracting visually. I did not have a fish competing in that size or variety so it wasn't that I thought I had a fish that was "better" only that in my mind, the "hoshi" was a negative when "judging for today".


    Mike Pfeffer

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    A lot of good points coming out so far in this conversation.

    We have finally gotten to a point in judging where we see the fish for what they are. I repeat-- we see the fish for what they are. This means, as living things in different stages of development. If that concept can be coupled with the perspective that koi come to us from Japan and elsewhere in grades of quality, the clouds will totally part regarding Mike's question.

    Steve is spot on about hoshi. It is one sign of good beni in it's developmental stages. But other lines of kohaku develop without any presence of hoshi at all! They are not 'lesser' koi, just different. And additionally, fish with good hoshi can also go bad with age. It is not a guarantee but it is a positive trait. Breeders will look fo it but then look to the kiwa on the shoulder and sides to see if the plate is stable.

    We judge young fish differently than sexually mature fish. The skin is completely different on youngsters when compared to mature adults- just like in people. A five year old's skin is different than a forty year old's skin.
    An example of this was seen in the kohaku class that were part of the public judging at the AKCA seminar this past Saturday. These were all fish of exactly the same grade. Which was a middle grade of koi. To emphasize this, the retail price of all the individuals was $225. So the breeder who culled them, culled them as males of a middle grade. Yet they were in different stages of development as individuals.
    The top two kohaku were then of the same grade but in different stages of finish. The more popular of the two among the judging teams was a fish with a balanced pattern and hoshi visible in it's skin. Yet the beni was going and not 'coming' based on two pieces of evidence- 1) the spaces in the kiwa and 2) the thinning of color uniformity on the left shoulder. The smaller fish on the other hand, had a simple pattern and no hoshi. This fish was already finished and had tight kiwa and a uniform glossy beni, making it the better small show fish.
    JR

  3. #13
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by l113892 View Post
    I don't remember the fish in question as being Steve's fish but I do remember a kohaku with strong "hoshi" which to me was distracting visually. I did not have a fish competing in that size or variety so it wasn't that I thought I had a fish that was "better" only that in my mind, the "hoshi" was a negative when "judging for today".


    Mike Pfeffer
    Mike,
    If we are talking Louisville, I think the Kohaku you are referencing was one just under 24", just west of the SE corner (next to the vendor entry tank) and was owned by Dr. Knox? Or are you referencing something else or different show?

    Steve

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    A lot of good points coming out so far in this conversation.

    We have finally gotten to a point in judging where we see the fish for what they are. I repeat-- we see the fish for what they are. This means, as living things in different stages of development. If that concept can be coupled with the perspective that koi come to us from Japan and elsewhere in grades of quality, the clouds will totally part regarding Mike's question.

    Steve is spot on about hoshi. It is one sign of good beni in it's developmental stages. But other lines of kohaku develop without any presence of hoshi at all! They are not 'lesser' koi, just different. And additionally, fish with good hoshi can also go bad with age. It is not a guarantee but it is a positive trait. Breeders will look fo it but then look to the kiwa on the shoulder and sides to see if the plate is stable.

    We judge young fish differently than sexually mature fish. The skin is completely different on youngsters when compared to mature adults- just like in people. A five year old's skin is different than a forty year old's skin.
    An example of this was seen in the kohaku class that were part of the public judging at the AKCA seminar this past Saturday. These were all fish of exactly the same grade. Which was a middle grade of koi. To emphasize this, the retail price of all the individuals was $225. So the breeder who culled them, culled them as males of a middle grade. Yet they were in different stages of development as individuals.
    The top two kohaku were then of the same grade but in different stages of finish. The more popular of the two among the judging teams was a fish with a balanced pattern and hoshi visible in it's skin. Yet the beni was going and not 'coming' based on two pieces of evidence- 1) the spaces in the kiwa and 2) the thinning of color uniformity on the left shoulder. The smaller fish on the other hand, had a simple pattern and no hoshi. This fish was already finished and had tight kiwa and a uniform glossy beni, making it the better small show fish.
    JR

  5. #15
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    A lot of good points coming out so far in this conversation.

    We have finally gotten to a point in judging where we see the fish for what they are. I repeat-- we see the fish for what they are. This means, as living things in different stages of development. If that concept can be coupled with the perspective that koi come to us from Japan and elsewhere in grades of quality, the clouds will totally part regarding Mike's question.

    Steve is spot on about hoshi. It is one sign of good beni in it's developmental stages. But other lines of kohaku develop without any presence of hoshi at all! They are not 'lesser' koi, just different. And additionally, fish with good hoshi can also go bad with age. It is not a guarantee but it is a positive trait. Breeders will look fo it but then look to the kiwa on the shoulder and sides to see if the plate is stable.

    We judge young fish differently than sexually mature fish. The skin is completely different on youngsters when compared to mature adults- just like in people. A five year old's skin is different than a forty year old's skin.
    An example of this was seen in the kohaku class that were part of the public judging at the AKCA seminar this past Saturday. These were all fish of exactly the same grade. Which was a middle grade of koi. To emphasize this, the retail price of all the individuals was $225. So the breeder who culled them, culled them as males of a middle grade. Yet they were in different stages of development as individuals.
    The top two kohaku were then of the same grade but in different stages of finish. The more popular of the two among the judging teams was a fish with a balanced pattern and hoshi visible in it's skin. Yet the beni was going and not 'coming' based on two pieces of evidence- 1) the spaces in the kiwa and 2) the thinning of color uniformity on the left shoulder. The smaller fish on the other hand, had a simple pattern and no hoshi. This fish was already finished and had tight kiwa and a uniform glossy beni, making it the better small show fish.
    JR
    OK JR, how is it you can get the same post to show up immediately following someone elses post? This make s 3 now. LOL

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Yes, I live in your shadow but I'm fast at the enter button.

  7. #17
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Judging these Dainichi for "Today" and "Quality".....

    Judging these Dainichi for "Today" and "Quality".....

    These 3 Kohakus are in 40bu size class. Which would be ranked as Champion and best tategoi?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Judging Koi: "On The Day" vs "Quality"-dainichi-kohaku.jpg  

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    who can tell from photos? I think we all credit ourselves, when judging photos, with having special powers to see in three dimensions from two dimensional images. But I'll play along.

    A) has the brightest skin with excellent luster and even bright beni. I don't like the pattern as this zigzag is a weak plate. But I might place it as 1st anyway in this size.
    B) is a close second especially based on body. I'd need to see A & B in real life to make a final choice. But again from the picture it's beni looks non uniform and not as bright as A. So B is second even with that better pattern. ( this is the 'zone of cross over' between pattern vs quality and these are fish with maturing bodies 40- 55cm). To me these fish with this shape are closer to 55 cm than 40 cm.
    C) is weak in body compared to the others but is still a fish with future growth potential so it is a tategoi. You will note that the shiroji is very bright in this fish.

    Really ALL the fish are tategoi at this size and quality, with A being the most finished at this moment but still has potential for size ( even if the volume looks full blown at the moment, its bone structure looks like it could advance). So even it is tategoi. I'd call all three of an above average to high class grade.

    IMHO. JR

  9. #19
    Jumbo
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    Kohaku B gets tossed out immediately for the bulging eyes, A places better now in the pics, and C places better in 3 years.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady Brandwood

  10. #20
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Koi of the day = A
    Koi for the future = C

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