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Thread: Is "Jumbo" as misused as "Tategoi"?

  1. #11
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    I think the term jumbo as in jumbo tosai and tategoi are completely different in terms of the hype associated with the terms.

    Jumbo tosai- unless the breeder or dealer is lying about the age, the fish is what it is- a koi larger than normal for its age. If you are provided the correct age, there is no question whether this is a jumbo or not. If that is a desirable trait for the customer- buy it. In this month's KOI USA- the story of Alexandria- that fish was a jumbo tosai, a jumbo nisai and a jumbo sansai and went on to win the AJS so we cannot dismiss that a jumbo fish can have a platform for a successful show career- no guarantees however.

    Tategoi- now this is a term that is abused. Even if the breeder and/or dealer is honest about their assessment, tategoi is only a term that conjures up an image in the breeder's head about the "possible" outcome and development of this fish. Many senerios can prevent a successful result, even the breeder being dead wrong. Then there is the customer who could and will have a different image of the outcome of this same fish. How could the two images possibly match? Again, citing the example of Alexandria- the images did match but that must be a rare, rare exception. The term tategoi could be throw out of the koi hobby and the hobby would not suffer a bit, nor would there be a struggle to communicate the value of a fish through discriptors such as size potential, potential conformation changes, what "might" happen in terms of pattern, etc.

    Mike Pfeffer
    Mike Pfeffer
    Northern Midwest ZNA show
    June 19 - 20, 2010
    Season's Garden Nursery
    Fishers, IN

  2. #12
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    when i talk about "jumbo Tosai" in my classes, I like to referr to the japanese sport of Sumo wrestling. Children are pushed for weight gain
    and after their stint at trying to make it to the top, end up with health issues later in life.

    From a breeders standpoint, the pattern is a little advanced, they're easier to sex, and size seem to add some credibility for an elevated price.

    From a hobbyists standpoint, It's a buzz word ( like the age old marketing tool for a product ) It's new, it's improved......it's the best! Doesn't everyone want the best in so much as to have an advantage over other show challengers?

    manys the time when I deliberately will pick the smallest tosai of the bunch that comes from genetically superior parents. It got cut cuz it didn't make the grade but I find them to catch up later in life and they often turn out female.

    I went thru a few boxes of tosai this year and took this one from the single a grade ( tho had AAA to select from) It was the smallest of the bunch......
    Good analogy Dick (jumbo & sumo wrestlers). I know that there are different viewpoints re whether jumbos are more prone to health issues. I suspect that, because jumbos are forced to grow so fast, they would have more health issues down the road than koi that are grown naturally.

    As far as smaller tosai catching up later in life, I think that there are some truth in this. However, these smaller tosai (1) will never be as big as their jumbo siblings and (2) will take forever to get to max adult size. I have found from my experience that these smaller tosai are the ones that stay at the bottom of the pond and usually don't have the aggressive appetite as their bigger siblings. Therefore, they don't grow and hence their stunted growth. I would be very interested in the growth development of your Sakai grade A kohaku.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    I also cringe when I hear these terms. Often times there will be Nisai labeled as Jumbo Tosai. They may have in fact been jumbo tosai when they were tosai, but the less knowledgeable may not understand that they are not actually Tosai any longer.

    Genetics will determine whether a koi has the potential to become a true jumbo koi of 34+" ...or there abouts. I look back at my grade school days. I was rather tall, but always the 4th tallest all through grade school. Funny that by the end of high school I was taller than the other three.

    In other words, not only does genetic potential play a part, but also the difference between individuals to grow at different rates at different times.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Steve
    Yes, isn't it scary thinking that you just bought a true jumbo tosai when in fact it's a small nisai that was held back a year? I, too, agree that there are individual differences in growth rate. I just don't like koi that are timid and that tend to stay on the bottom when other koi are aggressively feeding on top. No matter what the genetic potentials of these koi are, they just don't grow because they don't eat. That's why I think that it's important to watch feeding behaviors when making purchasing decisions.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    is JUMBO a misused and much abused word? Most definitely. JR

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