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Thread: The influence this board can have

  1. #81
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Russell View Post
    Thank you Marie,

    That was very well said.

    Yes, I am not, in the eyes of many here, in tune with the whole zen of Koi. I have a deep love of Koi, but you're right - I'm a business man too.

    John, admit it. You're a business man first.

    For a business to prosper - it has to be profitable. That may always get in the way.

    No, what will always get in the way is how you build your prosperity.

    Growing a small business into a national business requires many hats - including marketing. We're all bombarded with marketing everywhere we turn - so that last place you expect to find it is around your Koi pond. I understand.

    ...or in your college class, where you're myopically working towards your doctorate. There is a certain decorum one must emulate in that and similar settings. One does not enter such places like a bull in a china shop and expect the desired responses to one's personal agenda that others find disruptive to the extreme. You're really taking the wrong tack here. Step out of the box you've built for yourself before it's too late.

    Koi for profit and Koi for shear love can sometimes be at odds.

    But it doesn't have to be if you practice a thing called "Right Livelihood."

    One thing about that though, everyone from the breeder to the dealer a person buys their Koi from are all in it to make a profit. If they don't make a profit, they won't be in the business for very long. Believe it or not, this message board is for profit. If it didn't turn a profit from its advertisers - it wouldn't remain.

    Everybody has to eat, support a domicile, and pay bills to nurture their family and themselves. Not everyone has the obsession or compulsion to create an empire so intently s/he must step on and over others to reach that pinnacle. It damages others, and has no place in the seeking of a "Right Livelihood."

    You may know, that the watergardening industry is filled with unscrupulous businesses.

    The world is filled with unscrupulous businesses run by unscrupulous people. Watergardening is not unique to that.

    Since we're half way in that industry, the reason our retoric is so brazen is because so many businesses in that industry are co-opting and down right stealing our ideas. A new business popped up that is even riding our coattails into the middle inwhich we've been fighting for all these years. We've spent 10's of thousands of dollars in legal battles - and still they find ways to copy us.

    A very wise fellow by the name of Solomon once said, "There is nothing new under the sun." You are spending 10's of thousands of dollars in legal battles because you are not understanding this. No one is stealing from you.

    So this is why we have to stand on the roof tops and shout as loud as we can about our products and who created certain things first.

    No, it's not. What came first, the chicken or the egg theory, is not a question that needs to be answered OR preached, even in business. Screaming, "But I was FIRST! I WAS FIRST!" does not sell a thing. It creates animosity and the wrong sort of competition, and actually hurts other people and yourself in sometimes BIG ways.

    I know it sounds offensive to a lot of people here at the KB. Just remember to look who we're battling in the watergardening side and hopefully you'll understand.

    "There is no spoon."

    I'm not, nor ever will attempt to change anyone's mind about anything here.

    Au contraire, John. You are attempting the hardest sell of the century here, and you're looking not only for our support but also our knowledge and ideas. You're waaaay out of your league by approaching us that way. You just can't get out of that marketing box long enough to see it.

    Yes, I've seen an opening in the market and I'm doing something that hasn't been done before. Trying to place ourselves in the middle of two industies. (One of which isn't very ethical)

    An industry has no conception of ethical--it isn't a cognizant entity. It is people that bring bad ethics to the table, and you can't fight bad ethics with bad ethics. Get out of the box, John. Get out of the box.... *punt*

    You're right, we can't be all things to all people. Our goal is to respond to the needs of all those people that are in the middle of the two industries that aren't currently being fully serviced.

    Sounds altruistic, which is becoming of a champion. However, who are you hip-checking to get there?

    We also welcome those from the extremes of both sides - and if I've done my job right, everyone can find something they may need from our store. Maybe something as small as odd sized pipe adaptor or gasket to a check valve.

    If you've done your job right, everyone can find something they may need from your store without you having destroyed another's livelihood by the insatiable need to be the First and Only One.

    I am so happy for your latest post. It feels like we're moving closer to a relationship that I will enjoy for years to come.

    Really? Are you sure?

    I need to hear whats in your heart.

    You've just heard the tip of my iceberg. You sure you want to hear more, and on a public forum at that?

    I admit, our web site is full of marketing. It has to have a strong marketing message for the reasons stated above.

    Strong to the point of possibly misleading? Aggressive to the point of possibly destroying others attempts at their own form of Right Livelihood? I don't think so. There is a better way that you are not seeing, and you are being mirrored by others here that only hope you can see yourself in their examples and what effect you have on others with the methods you are employing in your attempts at a successful business.

    But please, if there is ever anything you see on the site that bothers you in any way - I want to hear it and why.

    I've already mentioned just one of the things I find distasteful and misleading on your site in order to glean initial sales and follow up sales.

    You can post it here, or email me directly and I'll do what is necessary to rectify the issue.

    Pay me generous consulting fees, and I'll sell you further input.

    I do not want to offend.

    Neither do I. But how do you feel when someone doesn't want to just *give* you the information you need to go forward ethically and rightly, from a genuine hand of friendship, but will take your money before that hand of "friendship" will be offered?

    Meditate on this.

    I'm our web master - so I can make changes to it immediately.

    I'm my own person, and I'm no follower. But I can make changes to that for the right price.

    How do you feel about me now?

    Again, thanks for such a well written post Marie.
    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com

    Thank you for the opportunity to try and pry you out of that hole that you've dug for yourself.

    Sincerely,
    Marie

    Last edited by Sangreaal; 08-29-2008 at 01:20 PM. Reason: spelling error

  2. #82
    Nisai
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    Depth of Passion

    Hi Marie,

    Thanks for all your comments. I appreciate your feedback. Most important, it is good for you to air you grievances for the general public out there that are following this thread so see. Get it off your chest. Let it all out. Let the anger and distaste flow from your veins untill you have no anger or distast left inside. Then maybe we'll be able to co-exist peacefuly as people actually trying to do some good.

    I think this thread showcases the depth of passion of so many KB'ers. The general public that we represent, the middle majority - are getting a good education.

    I do enjoy this Marie. Even after that severe tongue lashing - I still like and respect you. I do look forward to meeting you in person someday - then you can really let me have it!

    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com

  3. #83
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Russell View Post
    Hi Marie,

    Thanks for all your comments. I appreciate your feedback. Most important, it is good for you to air you grievances for the general public out there that are following this thread so see. Get it off your chest. Let it all out. Let the anger and hatred flow from your veins untill you have no anger or hate left inside. Then maybe we'll be able to co-exist peacefuly as people actually trying to do some good.


    I think this thread showcases the depth of passion of so many KB'ers. The general public that we represent, the middle majority - are getting a good education.

    I do enjoy this Marie. Even after that severe tongue lashing - I still like and respect you. I do look forward to meeting you in person someday - then you can really let me have it!

    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com
    John, you are mistaking admonishment with hate and anger that just isn't there.

    Get out of the box....the hate and anger is your own.

  4. #84
    Nisai
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    Go to hear from you Eric

    Hi Eric,

    Its good to hear from you. Its also good to see you here on this board.

    Yes, you are absolutely right about us making a name for ourselves by showcasing the faults of Aquascape way back when. We have always been open and honest with everyone - and this is another example.

    As you pointed out, our new corporate culture does not do that anymore. It is beneath us. One thing about the guy's article we're talking about here - There is a difference between Keyword Pirating and what we did back then. We did, what is called in the marketing world, "Comparitive Marketing". It is much different than Keyword Pirating. Let me explain.

    While we did do a good job or exposing the truth about Aquascape's products - none of it was unfactual. You know, as well as I, that if we we said any untruths about Aquascape's products they would have sued us in a heartbeat. We simply had a successful "Comparitive Marketing" campaign back then.

    What is "Comparitive Marketing"? Here's an example - go into a Subway restaurant and read their napkins. They publish the fat content of McDonald's and Burger King next to their subs. This clearly is factual - and is clearly ment to show McDonald's and Burger King in a bad way - in an effort to increase their own sales. It has been very successful for them.

    Another example: Mac vs. PC. You've all seen the commercials. Another perfect example of "Comparitive Marketing". Mac points out all the faults with PC while highlighting their own benefits in a funny, yet factual way. It is very successfull for them. In our case, we compared our fitler's, pumps, and skimmers side by side with theirs in a factual manner. True, it showed their products in a bad light - but that is the whole point of Comparitive Marketing. We were very successful at it.

    Comparitive Marketing and Keyword Pirating are two different things indeed. One is based on facts. People here may not like the concept - but it surrounds them everyday. Watch most car commercials - you'll see it there too.

    While this guy's article is full of untruths - and we could go after him legally for it. But, it's not worth high legal fees to do so. He is actually driving people to our web site. People read his article and think: "Wow, this Russell company must be terrible!" - then they go to our web site to see what all the fuss is about and they see that the guy is NOT being truthful. He is making himself look silly. In this case, bad publicity is good publicity.

    The same holds true to all the passionate, highly emmotional, negative jabs I recieve on this board every day. It just drives more people to our web site were they can make up their own minds about us.

    Eric, I'd love to play golf with you again someday. We were friends long before all of this, and we'll remain friends long after. Friends don't always have to see eye-to-eye on everything. As I said the last time we played - you're a natural. If I had your natual athletic ability - I wouldn't have to practice so much.

    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com

  5. #85
    Oyagoi Sangreaal's Avatar
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    Again, where is that guy that started this thread, anyway? He has abandoned what he has started and really needs to get in here and get his thread back on track....unless, of course, this is the direction he ultimately wanted it to take.

    Be responsible, Dick. Do the right thing.

  6. #86
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    This thread was started to acknowledge the person who helped bridge the gap in my locality that had been created between the watergardening and koi crowds. If I had a dime for the last 30 years when I had to deal with sick fish, green water etc because my name got passed around as someone who knew how the watergardener contractors built ponds and what to do to correct it, I could buy you and I a very nice Koi from Richard.

    But this thread has taken on a very different spirit than why it was started.


    I thought by giving some credit to this board who had helped to advance the hobby thru it's involvement with John was "the right thing".". I am also glad to see John's involvement on this board for advertising support and to encourage lurkers into doing some homework because of it.

    17 years ago when I helped start Washington Koi and watergarden society, quess what we had in our name? Watergarden! Still do! In fact watergardeners still come to the club as members and have an opportunity to advance more into our world of koi. In two Sundays i will be speaking to a group of interested folks at Bellevue community College's Aki matsuri....japanese fall festival. There is everything japanese there Including myself because the rest of the gang is having a koi show that weekend.. I mention it because I do these things to advance the hobby. In the last 30 years I have been a founding father of 3 clubs and an association of Koi Clubs in the pacific northwest. I didn't build relationships by being exclusionary. I have tried very hard to advance this hobby by building bridges..... being a voice of reason, by accepting folks where they're at and helping them in any way I can. I do it for " the love of Koi ".

    ....and that is why I choose not to become involved in a thread that has taken on a new direction from which it was intended. and that was, once again, to acknowledge both this board and it's members, and John and his team for the contributions they both have made toward the advancement of Koi Keeping....
    Dick Benbow

  7. #87
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Since it's "100 vs 1" I'm closing this one.
    Koi-Unit
    My personal koi page Updated 7/8/07
    ZNA Potomac Koi Club

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